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Jun 17, 2010
QOTD
The Ashkenazim hate us, they have no Yiras Elokim... These Ashkenazim degrade our honor to the dirt. These who work against other Jews - they have no fear of heaven... if this is the situation, there is no need to send the sefardim to ashkenazy schools... those people are causing the destruction of the Third Temple..
...and yet Shas is against the Bagatz ruling. And rightly so.
I hate to say it, but talking about those who hate and divide Israel goes both ways, including using the proverbial "racial genie".
And why did Sefaradim ever "need" to go to Ashkenazi schools in the first place? It should be a matter of choice - you choose a school, meet objective criteria, and keep to the school rules. If you join a school but expect to not have to conform to the rules, let alone change them, you can't expect to get accepted, nor can it be called discrimination.
Everybody should read the following article (Hebrew, I know, maybe I'll get a translation out somehow) on Arutz 7 As Soon As Possible.
What's the point of posting this motzi shem ra? Is there any to'elet? If you really have semicha from Rav Zalman Nachemiah Goldberg as it says on the sidebar, don't you think you should be setting an example of shemirat halashon?
The motzi shem ra is that he's saying Ashkenazim hate sefardim. That's false slander. Are you Ashkenazi? Do you hate sefardim? The Chofetz Chaim writes clearly that it's assur to slander an entire community and assur to further publicize such slander.
while his statement might be very over-generalized, one cannot deny that there is a certain amount of hatred. Perhaps hatred is the wrong word - I dont think it is hatred, but maybe just derision. They look at the sephardim as lower class.
It is far less common by the more moderate Haredim. But by the extremer, more hard-core haredim? They definitely have that sense that the sephardim are worse, lower class, problematic, and harmful.
I can tell you about many families, wonderful families with yiras shamayim, who have had to change their name to something more ashkenazy sounding in order to get a fair chance at getting into the schools of their choice. I just today heard a rosh yeshiva speak about something as he was trying to avoid having to allow a few sephardim into his yeshiva (note: he already has some in his yeshiva, but he prefers not taking in sephardim if he can avoid it).
Just the other day i took a friend of my sons for a test in a yeshiva - his father was unavailable so I took him. The boy was a sweet boy, very pleasant and refined, and my son told me he is one of the best in the class. I had previously only heard his name. I saw him and immediately understood that he is sephardi and had to change his name, but wasnt sure - maybe his mother was sephardi and married an ashkenazy man. After the test, I asked my son what his story was, and he told me that they changed their name so he could go to yeshiva. I will add that the rebbe who gave the test spoke with me afterwards (I could not help much as I did not know him or the family) and he was very suspicious of the boy. Sure, he needs to check boys out before he accepts them to his yeshiva, but his suspicion was based solely on the boy being sephardi, which he obviously realized as well.
(NOTE: The sephardi phenomenon of changing your name is what I call "the Whoopi Goldberg" - it gets you in the door, as they hear the name and accept it. You still have to go prove yourself, but getting your foot in the door solves 90% of the problem.)
Did you say that your son said he was one of the best in the class? (not that I'm sure he or you would still want to go there--but I know we all make tough choices)
I agree that many shtark Torah families in Israel see sephardim as potentially being problematic, and wouldn't send their children to yeshivot with a large percentage of sephardim. That includes, ironically, many Sephardi bnei Torah.
But I don't see the cause for this as hatred, derision, or racism. They're afraid of bad influences, that's the basis of their chinuch.
Rightly or wrongly, based on evidence or not, their perception is that the sephardim are more likely to bring in bad influences, lefi shitasam, such as newspapers, magazines, MP4's, cellphones with internet, football, secular haskafot, or whatever.
Is this a chinuch concern or racism? Is that the core of the issue in the High Court?
BYW, I studied with many sefardim in Ashkenazi kollelim such as Mir and Yeshivas HaRan who never changed their name, and they're fully integrated into either yeshivish minyanim or remain with sephardi shuls, and send their kids to the Litvishe yeshivot and Beis Yaakov. They told me about changing the name only as the topic of various jokes, I never met anyone who actually did!
mother - I am not sure what you are asking. Yes, my son told me that, but I have no idea if he is really one of the best or not. Either way, my son thinks he is. were you being cynical that if the sephardi boy is one of the best in the class it must not be a good place? :-)
David - Over the years I have met a number of such families. It is true - it happens. A boy I went to yeshiva with - we ended up living in the same neighborhood. When we went to yeshiva together, he bore a sephardi name. I bump into him when we lived in the same neighborhood and find out his last name is now something that is clearly an ashkenazy name. I asked hi about it and he told me he had to get his kids into school. It is very common.
That is besides the point. That is a symptom if them being discriminated against, You might argue that it is not as bad as they make it out to be, but you cannot deny it exists.
You could have said that your son said he is one of the best in the class. You are not giving an opinion about anything. What I meant to say, in parentheses, is that maybe you are not sure that you want your son to attend this particular yeshiva, based on the attitude of the rebbe.
...and yet Shas is against the Bagatz ruling. And rightly so.
ReplyDeleteI hate to say it, but talking about those who hate and divide Israel goes both ways, including using the proverbial "racial genie".
And why did Sefaradim ever "need" to go to Ashkenazi schools in the first place? It should be a matter of choice - you choose a school, meet objective criteria, and keep to the school rules. If you join a school but expect to not have to conform to the rules, let alone change them, you can't expect to get accepted, nor can it be called discrimination.
Everybody should read the following article (Hebrew, I know, maybe I'll get a translation out somehow) on Arutz 7 As Soon As Possible.
What's the point of posting this motzi shem ra? Is there any to'elet?
ReplyDeleteIf you really have semicha from Rav Zalman Nachemiah Goldberg as it says on the sidebar, don't you think you should be setting an example of shemirat halashon?
what Motzi shem ra? Baba Baruch said this on the radio. I found it intriguing and provocative.
ReplyDeleteThe motzi shem ra is that he's saying Ashkenazim hate sefardim. That's false slander. Are you Ashkenazi? Do you hate sefardim?
ReplyDeleteThe Chofetz Chaim writes clearly that it's assur to slander an entire community and assur to further publicize such slander.
while his statement might be very over-generalized, one cannot deny that there is a certain amount of hatred. Perhaps hatred is the wrong word - I dont think it is hatred, but maybe just derision. They look at the sephardim as lower class.
ReplyDeleteIt is far less common by the more moderate Haredim. But by the extremer, more hard-core haredim? They definitely have that sense that the sephardim are worse, lower class, problematic, and harmful.
I can tell you about many families, wonderful families with yiras shamayim, who have had to change their name to something more ashkenazy sounding in order to get a fair chance at getting into the schools of their choice.
I just today heard a rosh yeshiva speak about something as he was trying to avoid having to allow a few sephardim into his yeshiva (note: he already has some in his yeshiva, but he prefers not taking in sephardim if he can avoid it).
Just the other day i took a friend of my sons for a test in a yeshiva - his father was unavailable so I took him. The boy was a sweet boy, very pleasant and refined, and my son told me he is one of the best in the class. I had previously only heard his name. I saw him and immediately understood that he is sephardi and had to change his name, but wasnt sure - maybe his mother was sephardi and married an ashkenazy man. After the test, I asked my son what his story was, and he told me that they changed their name so he could go to yeshiva. I will add that the rebbe who gave the test spoke with me afterwards (I could not help much as I did not know him or the family) and he was very suspicious of the boy. Sure, he needs to check boys out before he accepts them to his yeshiva, but his suspicion was based solely on the boy being sephardi, which he obviously realized as well.
(NOTE: The sephardi phenomenon of changing your name is what I call "the Whoopi Goldberg" - it gets you in the door, as they hear the name and accept it. You still have to go prove yourself, but getting your foot in the door solves 90% of the problem.)
So yes - it is a real problem.
Did you say that your son said he was one of the best in the class? (not that I'm sure he or you would still want to go there--but I know we all make tough choices)
ReplyDeleteI agree that many shtark Torah families in Israel see sephardim as potentially being problematic, and wouldn't send their children to yeshivot with a large percentage of sephardim. That includes, ironically, many Sephardi bnei Torah.
ReplyDeleteBut I don't see the cause for this as hatred, derision, or racism. They're afraid of bad influences, that's the basis of their chinuch.
Rightly or wrongly, based on evidence or not, their perception is that the sephardim are more likely to bring in bad influences, lefi shitasam, such as newspapers, magazines, MP4's, cellphones with internet, football, secular haskafot, or whatever.
Is this a chinuch concern or racism? Is that the core of the issue in the High Court?
BYW, I studied with many sefardim in Ashkenazi kollelim such as Mir and Yeshivas HaRan who never changed their name, and they're fully integrated into either yeshivish minyanim or remain with sephardi shuls, and send their kids to the Litvishe yeshivot and Beis Yaakov. They told me about changing the name only as the topic of various jokes, I never met anyone who actually did!
mother - I am not sure what you are asking. Yes, my son told me that, but I have no idea if he is really one of the best or not. Either way, my son thinks he is.
ReplyDeletewere you being cynical that if the sephardi boy is one of the best in the class it must not be a good place? :-)
David - Over the years I have met a number of such families. It is true - it happens. A boy I went to yeshiva with - we ended up living in the same neighborhood. When we went to yeshiva together, he bore a sephardi name. I bump into him when we lived in the same neighborhood and find out his last name is now something that is clearly an ashkenazy name. I asked hi about it and he told me he had to get his kids into school. It is very common.
ReplyDeleteThat is besides the point. That is a symptom if them being discriminated against,
You might argue that it is not as bad as they make it out to be, but you cannot deny it exists.
The worst thing that happened to the sefardim is when Socialist Ashkenazim took away their religion.
ReplyDeleteThe second worst thing that happened to the sefardim is when Charedi Ashkenazim gave them their religion.
You could have said that your son said he is one of the best in the class. You are not giving an opinion about anything.
ReplyDeleteWhat I meant to say, in parentheses, is that maybe you are not sure that you want your son to attend this particular yeshiva, based on the attitude of the rebbe.
MoI - it is irrelevant. We are leaning against that yeshiva for other reasons.. that is hardly a factor
ReplyDeleteMark - I like that quote
Mark - I like that quote
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know, I wasn't quoting, I just made it up as I typed it.
Mark
if I hadnt already done a QOTD, yours would qualify
ReplyDeleteHey, there's always tomorrow :-)
ReplyDelete