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Sep 11, 2011
OROT Banot
A Guest Post by Bracha Goldstein (originally posted at Colloquially Speaking)
Well, it’s reached me. I tried to keep quiet about it, tried to watch from a distance, but it’s all the rage at the park these days and lord knows I ain’t one to let a good point go unheard.
Orot Banot – by now the best known school in Beit Shemesh – has made it’s mark on little old me, who never heard of it and still doesn’t know where it is.
Some self-hating Jews found it and seem to hate it. Loudly and obnoxiously, they’ve let their point be heard and now I have to respond.
But not to people who can’t hear. I have no nothing to say to, or about, a group of people hell-bent on bitter fighting. I have nothing to say to people who terrorize children and swarm the streets, dispensing their twisted views oh too freely.
The truth is, there is nothing anyone can say to them, or about them, that they haven’t already said. This is a group of people who have been around for years. Discussions were held, points were made, voices were lost in the intensity of the disagreements………..and no progress was made.
So stop expecting people who don’t agree with them, don’t want to be associated with them, and do not want to engage them in any form of conversation to speak up about them.
I will spell it out, because talking in tongues never seems to give the right impressions. The Dati Leumi community is asking the Chareidi community to condemn the actions of a mixed group of people in the same league as the wackos who shake hands with our enemies.
Now tell me, is that necessary? Do you really need the Chareidim to state the obvious? Or do you have such a horrible opinion of Chareidim that you don’t trust that they’ve come to the same logical conclusions about people who are certifiably insane?
Let me tell you something about Chareidim. I am not Chareidi. I am actually anti a lot of their hashkafos and have deliberately chosen not to live amongst them because of those hashkafos. I only know that I do not want to be Chareidi because I tried to be Chareidi once. And so I can say without a doubt that there is nothing Chareidi about this. The Chareidim should not break their teeth reiterating that they don’t agree with this. They should not put themselves in a position to defend the Chareidi world, because any sane person should be able to deduce that a small group of men shouting pathetically outside an elementary school for girls is not a proper representation of the Chareidi world.
There is nothing to say to a group of people that make their own rules, as there is no one who can make a difference with any sort of proclamation.
The girls need to be protected because there are people who are dangerous outside their school. Do what needs to be done. Put them first. Try to get this to be over using the tools available. Don’t make this into a civil war.
Let’s protect all the children. Maybe we should start by leaving this sort of discussion outside the park. I moved here so that my children could be raised in an environment of tolerance and acceptance. That my children could be accepted and so that they could accept others is dependent on what they hear at home, in school and in the park.
Well, it’s reached me. I tried to keep quiet about it, tried to watch from a distance, but it’s all the rage at the park these days and lord knows I ain’t one to let a good point go unheard.
Orot Banot – by now the best known school in Beit Shemesh – has made it’s mark on little old me, who never heard of it and still doesn’t know where it is.
Some self-hating Jews found it and seem to hate it. Loudly and obnoxiously, they’ve let their point be heard and now I have to respond.
But not to people who can’t hear. I have no nothing to say to, or about, a group of people hell-bent on bitter fighting. I have nothing to say to people who terrorize children and swarm the streets, dispensing their twisted views oh too freely.
The truth is, there is nothing anyone can say to them, or about them, that they haven’t already said. This is a group of people who have been around for years. Discussions were held, points were made, voices were lost in the intensity of the disagreements………..and no progress was made.
So stop expecting people who don’t agree with them, don’t want to be associated with them, and do not want to engage them in any form of conversation to speak up about them.
I will spell it out, because talking in tongues never seems to give the right impressions. The Dati Leumi community is asking the Chareidi community to condemn the actions of a mixed group of people in the same league as the wackos who shake hands with our enemies.
Now tell me, is that necessary? Do you really need the Chareidim to state the obvious? Or do you have such a horrible opinion of Chareidim that you don’t trust that they’ve come to the same logical conclusions about people who are certifiably insane?
Let me tell you something about Chareidim. I am not Chareidi. I am actually anti a lot of their hashkafos and have deliberately chosen not to live amongst them because of those hashkafos. I only know that I do not want to be Chareidi because I tried to be Chareidi once. And so I can say without a doubt that there is nothing Chareidi about this. The Chareidim should not break their teeth reiterating that they don’t agree with this. They should not put themselves in a position to defend the Chareidi world, because any sane person should be able to deduce that a small group of men shouting pathetically outside an elementary school for girls is not a proper representation of the Chareidi world.
There is nothing to say to a group of people that make their own rules, as there is no one who can make a difference with any sort of proclamation.
The girls need to be protected because there are people who are dangerous outside their school. Do what needs to be done. Put them first. Try to get this to be over using the tools available. Don’t make this into a civil war.
Let’s protect all the children. Maybe we should start by leaving this sort of discussion outside the park. I moved here so that my children could be raised in an environment of tolerance and acceptance. That my children could be accepted and so that they could accept others is dependent on what they hear at home, in school and in the park.
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And so I can say without a doubt that there is nothing Chareidi about this...
ReplyDeleteIf only the Charedim agreed with you.
Etana Hecht has written about her experiences talking to the Charedim who watch the incidents, and how the women have yelled at her that they don't like their little boys having to see the Orot little girls going to school without socks.
Chadash - the Bet Shemesh Charedi paper - has written up this situation (on the Hebrew side) as a fight between Dati Leumi (ok they use worse names) and Charedi.
And if you follow the comments on Rafi's blog, there are two or three posters who are believably Charedi and are writing against the environment that the Orot school is "obviously" creating.
You really should be trying to convince the Charedim that this has nothing to do with them, not the Dati Leumi.
if they disagree so strongly with these nutsos, so let them come to a demonstration with signs saying "this is not the way".
ReplyDeleteinstead they stay silent, not wanting to be a moser. so yes, they are up to their ears in this mess.
Who cares what the charediim think. Why are people allowed to protest near a school for minors? Why are strange adults allowed to even come close to these minors let alone harass them.
ReplyDeletePeople should be demanding more from the government. Stop the discrimination.Stop treating charediim special. If a group of arab israelis were outside a jewish school for minor aged girls they'd all be arrested. Zehu.
So reap what you sow. Keep giving the charediim respect and begging that other charediim get involved. Keep acting as if the default level of righteousness in Judaism is the charedi/ultra orthodox commnity. Because this is the result and even now, no one can get the authorities to bring the charediim to an equal footing with us mere mortals.
It's not that we care that much what the chareidim think. It's that, as I stated in my post, that at least the more moderate ones (in other words, most of RBS A) need to realize that this is their battle as well, because if Chas Veshalom the Kitzonim win this fight against Orot, they WILL turn to the RBS A sector next. They don't differentiate between us. The only way to run these thugs outta town is to get the moderate chareidi community to not be so scared of them and jump in our fight. Our numbers are much much stronger if they would do that. And so far, some have. The biggest Anglo shul in RBS A had an email on their list urging their members to show up and support Orot.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, many of us have been extremely careful to call them 'kitzonim' as opposed to Chareidi, to show our children that we DONT lump them together. However their funding DOES come from more mainstream chareidi sources and that is another reason we need as many moderate chareidim as possible to not only join in, but try to get their funding cut off as well.
Etana,
ReplyDeleteHere is what "moderate" charedim think:(from an older post)
The hooligans in RBS B opened up a Kupa shel Tzdaka. Generally those who run the local Kupa have a lot of power, especially in these types of neighborhoods, because they control the money and the tone of the neighborhood.
In any case, some of the money from the Kupa went towards tznius signs (to intimidate the people of Sheinfeld), along with other signs protesting various breaches. They admitted as much to a number of people, because they were proud of what they did and they thought they would garner support for it.
Money given for a kupa shel tzdaka should be used to support the needy and not for these types of things. If they come asking for money, make sure to ask them what the money will be used for.
Rav Eidensohn, who heads the kupa of RBSA, spoke last Motzei Shabbos at the inaugural dinner of the hooligan kupa. (not last night's kupa shel Tzdaka dinner - this happened the week before) This gives them great legitimacy because he heads the Kupa of RBS A which does great work and already is a large organization with a great reputation.
When asked why he was going to be speaking there (someone present at the conversation told me) considering it gives legitimacy to the hooligans and they will use it to control their neighborhood even though they are a minority within it, he responded that he has to give them legitimacy because otherwise RBS will become too modern.
Sorry, your argument is totally not convincing. You have nothing to say to a group of men harassing little girls outside a school? Really? Would you have the same attitude if a group of strange men were harassing your children outside of their school? Somehow I highly doubt that.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's so obvious and redundant to protest, therefore no Charedi protest is necessary? Also not convincing (and contradicts Etana's eyewitness testimony). And it smacks of blaming the victims and the victims' parents for speaking up.
And ending your piece with the cliched blandishment of "Let's protect all children"? Now that's obvious and redundant.
The problem with saying that mainstream Beit Shemesh (as opposed to other) chareidim are as disgusted by this behavior as everyone else is the following:
ReplyDelete1) The Hebrew Chadash paper represents Abutbol and his followers.
2) The Hebrew Chadash paper is completely on the side of the kitzonim.
3) Abutbol won the election, which means that his supporters represent a very large group of people, if not the single largest voting block in the city.
4) Unless Chadash has a suicidal policy, it is trying to represent its readership, which is, as mentioned, a very large group.
Doesn't that mean that it's not just fifty wackos?
Scott,
ReplyDeleteThe quote by Rabbi Eidensohn in the earlier comment could be said to be of mainstream charedim.
He is the principal of Toras Moshe, a main cheder of the anglo charedim and head of the Kupa Shel Tzedaka of RBSA.
I am certain that he represents what many charedim feel....support the kitzonim (or at least be quiet) as they hope this will keep RBSA from becoming too modern.
Exactly. It's pretty sad, but any attempt to say that the kitzonim are crazy and represent no one but themselves seems to smack of apologetics, rather than a realistic appraisal of the situation. Let's accept that many chareidim vehemently disagree with the kitzonim. And many chareidim are glad they're taking a stand.
ReplyDeleteI feel a responsibility here to mention a very important point:
ReplyDeleteWhile the kind of extremists who call little girls "Shiksa" don't listen to or respect people with other views (even Chareidi Rabbis), if enough Chareidi Rabbis and leaders would speak up clearly, consistently, and continually about how bad the actions of these hooligans are and how much they cause Chillul HaShem, there would be a "trickle down effect". Even though the hooligans would still not respect the Rabbis who would speak against their horrific actions, the hooligans would end up being so marginalized that they would not have as much effect as they do now, and their horrific actions would become less "fun" than they are now (and they would have less chance of using the excuse that none of the Chareidi leaders has spoken forcefully against their actions).
It is not that we need Chareidim to state the obvious; it is that Chareidim must make it clear that this is really obvious in their community, since there are almost no Chareidi leaders who have stated that these kind of demonstrations are Chillul HaShem in anywhere near as forceful a manner as they frequently state that lack of modesty is horrendous. Remember that the man who considers himself the Mara DeAtra (roughly equivalent to Chief Rabbi) of the Kiryah Chareidit in Bet Shemesh signed the threatening Pashkevil full of disgusting epithets against the girls of Orot and their mothers; and he is considered a Chareidi Rabbi of high standing in Bet Shemesh (and by some he is even considered a moderate Chareidi); so it is not so obvious (at least in public) that this dangerous behavior is condemned by Chareidi society in general (though I hope and believe that it is condemned by the vast majority of Chareidim), and public condemnations would serve several useful purposes.
We must also be aware of what several Chareidi friends in the know have told me: that these kind of demonstrations are indeed "fun" for many of the hooligans participating in them. Many of these people don't have much "action" in their lives and having demonstrations like these allows them to claim that they are performing a holy service, while creating some action as recreation for them to enjoy. There is also the "negative overflow effect" about which some Chareidim have reported: When these hooligans visit the Shtieblach shuls the morning after a demonstration like this, many Chareidim who don't actually approve of these actions do express admiration of the "action" which these hooligans brought into everybody's lives. If there were an atmosphere of public condemnation of these actions, some of the "fun" and the admiration from others would also be diminished, which would help reduce the number of incidents like these.
(Continued in next comment)
(Continued from previous comment)
ReplyDeleteThis kind of positive "trickle down effect" would not occur immediately (which is another reason that some Chareidi Rabbis have given me for why they will not speak out forcefully in public, but they are missing the point of building up momentum towards an atmosphere which would make it more difficult for the hooligans to put their plans into practice), but if Chareidi leaders were truly Matmidim at getting the message out it would have an effect that would benefit all communities (especially the Chareidi community, because these hooligans always claim to be acting in the name of the entire Chareidi community, and often claim that they have the support of the entire Chareidi community; though their claims are not justified, without community leaders emphasizing how much those hooligans do NOT represent the Chareidi community, the impression is still left that the hooligans' actions are acceptable to the Chareidi community).
Therefore, I encourage anyone who can, to contribute "his/her little bit" toward getting Chareidi Rabbis and leaders to continually speak out publicly and forcefully against the actions of the hooligans (who call themselves "Kanoyim", in a truly unjust misuse of that term), and to help produce the long term positive effect to which I am referring. This DOES mean speaking to any Rabbis and leaders you know and telling them that you believe that they should speak out and should encourage other Rabbis and leaders to speak out continually, even if the effect is not felt immediately.