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Apr 10, 2013
Haredi autonomy in Eretz Yisrael
The big news of the day seems to have been an article in Hamodia (Hebrew edition). Hamodia wrote an article suggesting the formation of an autonomous Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael.
(sources: NRG, kikar, Ladaat, INN)
Before I say anything else, I would first point out that the two State Solution has gone from Two States to One State back to Two States, then Three States and it looks like Four States is also a possibility now!
I saw articles about this in just about every Israeli news website, but will quote from INN (out of laziness, so I dont have to translate it myself):
(sources: NRG, kikar, Ladaat, INN)
Before I say anything else, I would first point out that the two State Solution has gone from Two States to One State back to Two States, then Three States and it looks like Four States is also a possibility now!
I saw articles about this in just about every Israeli news website, but will quote from INN (out of laziness, so I dont have to translate it myself):
In an article published Wednesday, the paper attacked religious-Zionist politicians who formed an alliance with Yair Lapid’s Yesh Atid party rather than with hareidi parties, and laid out the significant ideological differences between the hareidi-religious and religious-Zionist communities.Considering that there already is "Jewish autonomy" in Eretz Yisrael, this would likely actually be "Haredi autonomy". I am not quite sure how this will work.
The article then accused, “Led by the media and Supreme Court, which are fed by left-wing organizations funded by anti-Semites, they chose to deny the status quo which was achieved through great effort, and to break all the agreements, like the authorization of fictitious conversions and civil marriage, and to interfere with - and harm - the hareidi community.”
“If there is no improvement, there is an option that must be considered as a last resort – to create a Jewish autonomy in the Land of Israel,” it continued.
“Autonomy means administrative independence regarding internal affairs, without the status of a sovereign state, with legislative and economic independence and police, and without an army or foreign policy,” it stated.
According to the writers, the plan has a real chance of success. “If we managed to establish Bnei Brak, Elad and Modiin Illit, Laniado [hospital] and Ezer Mitzion, we can also establish an electric company, highways, and whatever else is needed,” they wrote.
The article suggested that economic independence would benefit the hareidi community, as it would allow for a system in which hareidi workers are not limited by non-recognition of their academic background or by immodesty in the workplace. In addition, it argued, the hareidi autonomy would not need to spend large sums on sports, modern culture, prisons or treatment centers for drug addiction.
“Torah scholars will be respected members of society and will get decent stipends, and we will ensure housing at reasonable prices,” it added.
- Will they demand a certain piece of land?
- Will they demand Jerusalem as their capital or maybe Bnei Braq?
- Will they have demands and negotiate with Israel to get them?
- will they expect a contiguous piece of land for their new country?
- they say they wont have the need to spend money on prisons and drug addiction centers - do they think everyone in their new society will be perfect or will they just kick anyone who misbehaves out and send them to Israel? When a young haredi man will be caught smuggling drugs into some country or other, will they fight for his release and then just send him to kollel?
- they wont be limited in the workplace by their lack of education - I wonder what their hospitals will look like as far as the quality of the doctors who did not get an education, or how safe their buildings will be being built by people who were no longer hampered in the workplace because of no education. Fly on one of their airplanes and then you find out the pilot is a graduate of the best yeshiva in Bnei Braq.
- Is it safe to assume that this will be an Internet-free country?
- Will all buses be mehadrin? Or maybe it will be a female-free country and they will only take the men into this new country.
- A serious crime in this new country will not necessarily be drugs or violence, as of course there will not be any, but being caught with a smartphone will get you 7 to 10 years in prison.
- Will they run the legal system as a halachic state? Will it be a democracy? Elections?
- Will they say hallel on their Independence Day? Will they need passports to get to Meron for Lag b'Omer or will they demand Meron as part of their country?
I wonder which country I would choose to live in, should this come into existence. A country in Eretz Yisrael established by frum people - that should be ideal!
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perhaps if they came to Israel in any great number before the war, they could have created that kind of society, but is a bit too late now
ReplyDeletePause for laughter.
ReplyDeleteOkay, now: take it from a Canadian, this plan will go nowhere. For my entire lifetime our French province of Quebec has been threatening to secede if Canada doesn't give it what amounts to political autonomy within the federation along with oodles of tax dollars from the rest of the country to pay for their overly generous social programs and university education. And it hasn't gotten us anything other than more whinging, more demands, more extortion.
A Chareidi "autonomous" area will quickly go bankrupt unless the rest of the State props it up and ensures police, fire and health services are funded and provided.
Oh wait, isn't that Meah Shearim?
Rafi - Do you know whether the piece was an editorial of the paper or just one man's opinion? Big difference
ReplyDeleteThe reason that there won't be problems with drug addiction is because they apparently expect to legalize it. Nothing but drugs could explain the idea that a Charedi state would be crime-free.
ReplyDeleteOr perhaps they simply intend to whip or execute criminals.
JayJay: Ladat reports:
ReplyDeleteבמאמר שכתוב תחת השם יעקב שמעונוביץ, נכתב
JayJay - everything in the frum papers is an editorial. there is no such thing is an opinion piece, or just anybody writing an article and submitting it. everything has to get approved by the vaad ruchanit, vaad rabbonim and whatever else they call it to make sure the hashkafa promoted is consistent with that of the paper.
ReplyDeleteUnless it's in the English section of Chadash Bet Shemesh....
DeleteHa ha ha ha HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
ReplyDelete"Torah scholars will get decent stipends"
ReplyDeleteWho the heck is going to pay for this, and for everything else?
maybe they will raise money through the UN, similar to the Palestinians. As well, they can go back to collecting from sympathetic Jews the way Israel did in its early days
Delete<munches popcorn>
ReplyDeleteDidn't some right-wing extremists already establish the state of "Yehudah" several years ago? So this already makes it a four state solution!
ReplyDeleteAnd what happened to the "Canaanite" movement? Were they going to establish somethign separate? Does that make a five-state solution?
Rafi, you are right that we could be going for a four (or more) state solution; but isn't that the way it is with us Jews? They say that four Jews have five opinions, so maybe we need an autonmous area for each of those opinions!
Nice to have something humorous to think about!
I think that this is a GREAT idea and it requires a test run.
ReplyDeleteRather than establish a state and its infrastructure right away, they can start by PAYING for all the services they DO receive. This will test the feasibility of the plan and get the citizens of this proposed entity used to paying for things themselves.
This is stupid beyond belief. let's just take a few simple examples:
ReplyDelete1. Medical care - Who will the doctors be? Who will pay the doctors? Who will pay for medicine?
2. Infrastructure - Who will engineer buildings. roads, bridges? Engineering is tough and requires a lot of secular studies, where will the knowledge come from?
3. What exactly will the economy be based on? What would this autonomy actually produce? Where will the money come from? Money doesn't grow on trees and modern economies are built on knowledge, secular knowledge.
4. Security - The article states that they won't have an army, so who exactly will provide security? The Israeli army? For free?
I could go on but there is no point, this is just stupid.
everything is in the Torah. The Chazon Ish performed brain surgery.
Delete:-)
And that's why when R' Elyashiv needed heart surgery 2 years ago (Should we go to the best doctor?), they flew in a a religious Catholic from Cleveland.
Delete<in between mouthfuls of popcorn>
ReplyDeleteNo, this will be very interesting to see, if Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai's formulation will continue to work: just learn Torah, and your mundane needs will be taken care of by others.
Back to my popcorn...
Shaul,
ReplyDeleteThe Gemara(Berachos 36b) already so it won't work, הרבה עשו כרשב"י ולא עלתה בידם
Really???
DeleteWell, well, well... I shall continue to watch with great interest to see if that maxim still holds true... Anyone offering odds on how D'vei R' Yishmael vs D'vei R' Shimon turns out in year 5773? Think it'll be different than it was circa 3900?
<munch munch munch>
I say let 'em try it. Give them a nice big swath of land in the Arava to build Torahbad (maybe Chareidistan? Chumraville?) and see what happens. I'm with Shaul B, though -- pass the popcorn pls.
ReplyDeleteMedinas Mehadrin.
DeleteEveryone is thinking too small... we need 12 states.. As Moses told Joshua.
ReplyDelete