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Apr 10, 2014
Saving Jews by selling their chametz without telling them
I frequently enough quote Moshe Feiglin on this blog... Now I am going to quote Moshe Feiglin, but it is not the same guy. This is Moshe Feiglin, a Chabdnik. I think it is a distant cousin - I used to be in contact with a member of a Chabad family named Feiglin and the person told me that they are distant cousins with the MK (then he was not MK yet).. I think this is part of that family.
Anyways, this Chabad Moshe Feiglin wrote on Facebook a proposal how every religious Jew can "save" a non-religious from violating Pesach with chametz. Here is Feiglin's Facebook post:
The following was posted by Feiglin to his Facebook page:
Basically, you should sell someone else's chametz. If they eat some of that chametz, not knowing it is not owned by them but by a gentile somewhere, theft from a non-Jew is not as bad as eating chametz on pesach, from a halachic perspective. So, you have saved him from a more serious transgression.
How can you sell someone else's chametz? using the concept of "zachin l'adam she'lo b'fanav" - you can do acquire something for somebody when it will be beneficial for him, even without his knowledge. So, he does not know it, but you can sell his chametz because it is beneficial to him.
my problems with it:
1. it seems very Christian and missionary-like. "Saving" people. Kind of grates on my nerves.
2. The concept of "zachin" is, in my opinion being misused. the concept is used in two ways that I know - either to acquire something for somebody from hefker, or to buy something for somebody and to facilitate the acquisition now for the person you intend to give it to later.
from hefker: if I find an object that does not seem to belong to somebody, I can acquire it on behalf of somebody else knowing he would want it. It is considered his even now, even though he has not yet touched it or come into actual possession of it.
giving ownership: such as if I want to give a book to someone on Shabbos, but one cannot make an acquisition, a kinyan, on Shabbos. I can buy the book and acquire it for my friend before Shabbos, so it is already his. Then, when I give it to him on Shabbos, he is not acquiring it as it is already his.
In this case of Moshe Feiglin above, he is using zachin to say I can take my neighbors thigns and sell it, because spiritually thats what he would really prefer.
We don't find, as far as I know, "zachin" working to let me take something from somebody else without his knowledge. Only to give to him.
If I sell my neighbors chametz without his knowledge, I stole his chametz and sold it, which is theft on my part (and with all due respect, I am not going to transgress the prohibition of theft just to prevent someone else from transgressing the prohibition of chametz - another talmudic concept).
The second possibility, and this is really the way it works - I did absolutely nothing. I cannot sell my neighbors stuff. I might think I sold it, but all I did was deceive the rav who facilitate the sale, and the non-Jew who bought it. When the non-religious Jew eats his chametz on pesach, he will not be eating the goy's chametz after unknowingly stealing it from him - he will be eating his own chametz, because I cannot sell someone else's belongings without his knowledge!
The one good thign i can say about this idea promoted by Feiglin is that he is showing his ahavat yisrael by trying to find a way to "save" others form transgressions...
Do you know of any other reasons why this may or may not work?
Anyways, this Chabad Moshe Feiglin wrote on Facebook a proposal how every religious Jew can "save" a non-religious from violating Pesach with chametz. Here is Feiglin's Facebook post:
The following was posted by Feiglin to his Facebook page:
Post by Moishe Feiglin.
Basically, you should sell someone else's chametz. If they eat some of that chametz, not knowing it is not owned by them but by a gentile somewhere, theft from a non-Jew is not as bad as eating chametz on pesach, from a halachic perspective. So, you have saved him from a more serious transgression.
How can you sell someone else's chametz? using the concept of "zachin l'adam she'lo b'fanav" - you can do acquire something for somebody when it will be beneficial for him, even without his knowledge. So, he does not know it, but you can sell his chametz because it is beneficial to him.
my problems with it:
1. it seems very Christian and missionary-like. "Saving" people. Kind of grates on my nerves.
2. The concept of "zachin" is, in my opinion being misused. the concept is used in two ways that I know - either to acquire something for somebody from hefker, or to buy something for somebody and to facilitate the acquisition now for the person you intend to give it to later.
from hefker: if I find an object that does not seem to belong to somebody, I can acquire it on behalf of somebody else knowing he would want it. It is considered his even now, even though he has not yet touched it or come into actual possession of it.
giving ownership: such as if I want to give a book to someone on Shabbos, but one cannot make an acquisition, a kinyan, on Shabbos. I can buy the book and acquire it for my friend before Shabbos, so it is already his. Then, when I give it to him on Shabbos, he is not acquiring it as it is already his.
In this case of Moshe Feiglin above, he is using zachin to say I can take my neighbors thigns and sell it, because spiritually thats what he would really prefer.
We don't find, as far as I know, "zachin" working to let me take something from somebody else without his knowledge. Only to give to him.
If I sell my neighbors chametz without his knowledge, I stole his chametz and sold it, which is theft on my part (and with all due respect, I am not going to transgress the prohibition of theft just to prevent someone else from transgressing the prohibition of chametz - another talmudic concept).
The second possibility, and this is really the way it works - I did absolutely nothing. I cannot sell my neighbors stuff. I might think I sold it, but all I did was deceive the rav who facilitate the sale, and the non-Jew who bought it. When the non-religious Jew eats his chametz on pesach, he will not be eating the goy's chametz after unknowingly stealing it from him - he will be eating his own chametz, because I cannot sell someone else's belongings without his knowledge!
The one good thign i can say about this idea promoted by Feiglin is that he is showing his ahavat yisrael by trying to find a way to "save" others form transgressions...
Do you know of any other reasons why this may or may not work?
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Whether or not this person owns the Chametz he would still be in violation of eating it. This, if it works and is Halachically permissible, only circumvents the issue of possessing Chametz.
ReplyDeleteYes, but feiglin himself explained this. He would only be 'over' however much he ate a and no more. With owning it he is 'over' the issur doraisa for all his chametz
DeleteI think the possession is one 'lav'. The quantity doesn't change that. It's the same 'lav' if I own 1 kilo or 100 kilos of hametz. No? But each time I eat is a separate act of eating, and theft in this case.
Deleteinteresting point. I dont know. the issur of eating though is not every time one eats, but each kezayis one eats. I dont know if the issur of owning is also on each kezays or one issur for everything
DeleteThis is commonly done when people have non observant relatives with whom they may be eating immediately after Pesach. It takes care of the problem of chametz she'aver alav ha'pesach. He is "simply" taking it one step further and applying it even when there is no "benefit" for the person doing the "zachin she lo'befanav.:
ReplyDeletePublicizing it on Facebook is a different question. But halachacilly it works.
"Commonly"? I admit it's a big Jewish world out there; but this is first I've heard of this, despite my almost daily dealings with community rabbanim from all over North America, Europe, and Israel. Where is this so "common"?
DeleteFor that matter, who is the halachic responsible figure behind this idea? What is his rationale? As I note below, to this average, simple Jew it seems pretty iffy.
I've never heard of this done for non religious relatives. I doubt it's common. What I am familiar with its a relative giving someone permission to sell on his behalf. This happens commonly with both religious and non religious people. Like someone selling for his elderly mother of for a grandmother
Deleteyou can ask rav feurst from chicago, rafi
Deletewhy specifically rav feurst rather than any other rav? is he involved in something similar?
DeleteI admit my limitations in the realm of Hoshen Mishpat; but I don't think it is a valid sale. You can't effect a sale of someone else's property without their permission. A beit din can do so under certain circumstances; but not an individual.
ReplyDeleteAlso, we don't say 'do a transgression in order that your fellow will benefit (by avoiding or minimizing a sin).' This is discussed by Hazal in a few places.
And don't even ask me what I think about dismissing the problem of gezel goy.
In short: oy. vey.
I think this is a fair summary of the issue, particularly at the end: http://www.businesshalacha.com/articles/chametz-sell. I was taught usually like the Ktzos, since Rav Avrum Shapiro would teach Ktzos every week in the yeshiva. Anyway, note that the application of 'zachin l'adam' is usually understood at least to require a presumption that the person would want this to occur. At that point, you are sort of asserting an implied shlichut (to borrow from the medical notion of implied consent). If I cannot reasonably assume that the person would want me to do this if he only knew, then I effect nothing by claiming to sell on his behalf.
ReplyDeleteI would add here, since I have experience with selling chametz at the community level (which I need to get to today) that whenever I have pointed out to someone not particularly observant that the sale is real, and using the chametz during Pesah would be a theft - they've chosen not to sell. Unobservant Jews think the sale is come sort of ceremony; not a real legal act. But they understand theft as a real wrong to be avoided. Based on my limited personal experience, I would NOT assume that a Jew who is eating chametz over Pesah would want me to sell his chametz. If he doesn't want me to sell on his behalf (or I can't assume that), then no sale has occurred.
However, I also heard of a relatively well-respected Rav (from the "moderate" Hareidi Litvish group) recommending (more than 30 years ago) that a Baal Teshuva sell his parent's Chametz for them (even though they would never agree to sell it themselves).
DeleteWhat if this is just a way to get more email and snail addresses for Chabad mailing lists?
ReplyDeleteIf you listen to R Schachter (http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/811747/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Inyonei_Pesach_#4) at around minute 40, you'll hear him say that we basically rely on zachin me'adam (against the ktzos) because people often buy chametz (which they don't end up eating before Pesach, and hence want to be part of the mechira) after they do the kinyan with their Rabbi. Since we may assume that you can't do shlichut for a davar shelo ba leolam, you have to rely on the fact that the Rabbi is allowed to sell the chametz of his congregants because it's in their best interest.
ReplyDeleteIf you summarized correctly, the critical difference remains that Rav Schachter is talking about someone who "hence wants to be part of the mechira". But the original suggestion is to include people who may not care to be part of a mechira. I think even those who paskin against the Ktzos require that we could reasonably assume that they would indeed want to be included in the mechira.
DeleteI just had a chance to hear Rav Schachter's shiur. He says clearly "if they're not religious baalabatim, so it's not a zchus; they not interested in selling the hametz" at about 43:40. So the original idea posted above does not work. Good intentions are good; but taking action and making suggestions to others (not you Rafi; the guy on Facebook) should be based on good halacha.
ReplyDelete