May 8, 2014
The battle to get the Rabbanut to certify and authorize women as mashgichot kashrut has moved forward after many delays. Yesterday the Rabbanut allowed 9 women to take the exams to become certified as mashgichot kashrut. This is the first time the Rabbanut has allowed women to take the exam, making this a historic change in policy.
Interestingly, the main opposition to women serving as mashgichot remains in their being unfit for the position, rather than any pure halachic objections. The opponents claim women are unfit because they are softer, weaker, and likely will not stand up to a strong-willed, obstinate, loud-mouth business owner.
source: Kikar and Ladaat
In my opinion it is not much of an issue - a woman who is not appropriate for the job will not get that job. If a woman does not have the strength or confidence to stand up and enforce her decisions, she will be put in a position where that is less necessary. Just like I would expect in most other situations a potential job candidate will usually not be given a job he or she cannot handle and is not appropriate for.
Some women are tough characters, and they could be given such jobs, while others are meeker and would be given other jobs. Just like men. Some men are tougher and would be appropriate for a position that requires standing up to a tough owner, while others are meeker and would be more appropriate to be in a position where toughness is not a requirement. It could be, as Rav Moshe Feinstein is quoted as saying, that most frum women are meeker, but that does not preclude that some are tougher and could take such jobs.
I heard Rav Shmuel Eliyahu on the radio last night. Rav Eliyahu has been a supporter of allowing women to become certified mashgichot. He agreed that the problem exists, but said there are ways to solve it, such as by having supervisors who will support the stance of the mashgichot against the tough owners and give them backing in a way that they wont be out there all alone standing up to a tough owner against their nature.
I don't see the problem as a reason to keep a policy to not allow women in these positions. Find the women who are appropriate. Find solutions for the ones who are meeker. It can all be done. And keep an eye on the situation - someone who is found to be not effective in a certain position despite all the solutions implemented, will surely have to be moved to a different position. Kashrut cannot be allowed to be adversely affected by this, but there is almost no reason it has to be.
Interestingly, the main opposition to women serving as mashgichot remains in their being unfit for the position, rather than any pure halachic objections. The opponents claim women are unfit because they are softer, weaker, and likely will not stand up to a strong-willed, obstinate, loud-mouth business owner.
source: Kikar and Ladaat
In my opinion it is not much of an issue - a woman who is not appropriate for the job will not get that job. If a woman does not have the strength or confidence to stand up and enforce her decisions, she will be put in a position where that is less necessary. Just like I would expect in most other situations a potential job candidate will usually not be given a job he or she cannot handle and is not appropriate for.
Some women are tough characters, and they could be given such jobs, while others are meeker and would be given other jobs. Just like men. Some men are tougher and would be appropriate for a position that requires standing up to a tough owner, while others are meeker and would be more appropriate to be in a position where toughness is not a requirement. It could be, as Rav Moshe Feinstein is quoted as saying, that most frum women are meeker, but that does not preclude that some are tougher and could take such jobs.
I heard Rav Shmuel Eliyahu on the radio last night. Rav Eliyahu has been a supporter of allowing women to become certified mashgichot. He agreed that the problem exists, but said there are ways to solve it, such as by having supervisors who will support the stance of the mashgichot against the tough owners and give them backing in a way that they wont be out there all alone standing up to a tough owner against their nature.
I don't see the problem as a reason to keep a policy to not allow women in these positions. Find the women who are appropriate. Find solutions for the ones who are meeker. It can all be done. And keep an eye on the situation - someone who is found to be not effective in a certain position despite all the solutions implemented, will surely have to be moved to a different position. Kashrut cannot be allowed to be adversely affected by this, but there is almost no reason it has to be.
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"not appropriate for the job will not get that job" I'm curious to know what is appropriate and what is not. I was always under the impression (confirmed by a mashgiach of a large factory) that mashgichim are given workshops on dealing with the psychological pressure of business owners, but apparently the official course syllabus these days does not have such a chapter so I'm not sure all men are appropriate for the job.
ReplyDeleteI'm not so sure about women being all that meek. It reminds me of the old story of a young ilui who is about to get married. The young woman, wise beyond her years, says they will marry only with the condition that he stay out of her kitchen. She's afraid he'll mess things up. 'What? I'm a rabbi. I know all about kashrut!' 'That's exactly the problem', she says. 'I know all about you rabbis. This is permitted as bediavad. That's permitted as a kula. There's a shita that allows this. Pretty soon you'll treif up my entire kitchen!'
ReplyDeleteOverlooked Psychology of the Arab-Israeli Peace Process
ReplyDeleteby Mr. Cohen of the Derech Emet yahoo group, 2014/4/27
In a very famous Bible story, King Solomon threatened to cut a baby in half
to satisfy the claims of two women who claimed possession of the same baby
(Melachim Aleph, chapter 3, verses 16 to 28).
The fake mother did not object to cutting the baby in half,
but the real mother begged King Solomon to not do it
because the real mother did not want to see her baby die.
Arabs are very familiar with this Bible story and they apply it
to the conflict over possessing “Palestine.” Arabs believe that
just as the fake mother in the court of King Solomon was
willing to divide the baby, the Israelis are fake owners of
“Palestine” because they are willing to divide it.
According to this logic, Arabs can never agree to less than 100%
of “Palestine” because doing so would make them like the fake
mother in the court of King Solomon who was willing to divide the baby.
www.algemeiner.com/2014/05/07/the-new-york-times-whitewashes-anti-israel-terrorism/
Refuting the Jew Haters by Mr. Cohen, 2014/4/27,
ReplyDeletemoderator of the Derech Emet yahoo group,
I do NOT suggest that any Jew waste his or her time arguing
with Jew haters, for many reasons.
First, our obligation as Jews is to serve G_d, not argue with
Jew hating lunatics.
Second, they can be dangerous, and even if you think you
are anonymous on the internet, you are not as anonymous
as you think you are, and they may find you, G_d forbid.
Third, many Jew haters are fanatics and/or lunatics,
who will never listen to anything you say, or even use
your words against Jews in ways you did not anticipate.
Still, there are rare situations when it helps to know how
to refute their accusations against Jews; for example,
when a sincere Gentile co-worker or neighbor is
influenced by the accusations of the Jew haters.
One favorite accusation of the Jew haters is that Jews
have been expelled from many countries and cities.
Jew haters use this to imply that Jews are bad people.
This accusation can be countered.
When a Medieval king expelled Jews from his country,
Jews were usually not able to take their possessions
with them, so all the possessions of the Jews became
the property of the king, including: land, houses,
furniture, gold, silver, jewels, farm animals, etc.
Even if the Jews had some way to take their money with
them (which was far from guaranteed) they could not
take their larger possessions with them. This permitted
the kings to increase their wealth quickly with little risk.
So kings had big financial incentives to expel their Jews,
as did lords and dukes.
Another reason why Jews were expelled many times from
Christian countries was that Medieval Christians did not
tolerate people whose beliefs disagreed with their own.
Medieval European Christians also persecuted other
Christians whose beliefs differed from their own.
For example:
In October 1536 CE, William Tyndale was publicly
executed because he translated the Bible into English,
even though he was Christian.
Most Christians alive today tolerate people with different
beliefs, but this tolerance is around one or two centuries old.
We Jews should THANK G_D that we live in an era
when most Christians no longer believe their religion
wants them to persecute Jews.
www.jewishpress.com/blogs/nyt-promotes-arch-terrorist-as-peacemaker/2014/04/09/
Or.......it's just "pas nisht" sexism, perhaps?
ReplyDeleteIf Rav Moshe Feinstein specified the concern, I wouldn't discount it as sexism. However, the first two commenters make the point that any mashgiach must be trained in the "cultural" principles of how the hashgacha operates.
ReplyDeleteIt won't come down to whether the mashgicha will put her foot down in front of a factory owner. It comes down to whether she recognizes a problem - as a problem, or as something that "maybe isn't so important" - and how she reports it.
Further, if a factory owner pushes a request aside that would be grounds for escalation in any arrangement - it means inherently that the kashrus supervision is at risk. I'd be more concerned of the male mashgiach who thinks he can single-handedly manage a difficult setup.
Did you delete your Yitzhar post? (#journalistic ethics)
ReplyDeleteno. is there a reason I should?
Delete(not sure what journalism ethics are relevant, but I am not a journalist anyway, and not bound by journalist ethics. this is a private blog and is here for me to state my opinion, not to be a journalist)
The post is no longer visible.
ReplyDeletelooks fine to me http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.co.il/2014/05/eliraz-fein-of-yitzhar-arrested-for.html
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