Featured Post
Free The Hostages! Bring Them Home!
(this is a featured post and will stay at the top for the foreseeable future.. scroll down for new posts) -------------------------------...
Sep 24, 2015
OBD esrog rate differences
There is something I don't understand, and would like (serious, preferably) answers and explanations, if possible..
Most of the esrogim on the market this year are shmitta produce and are being sold through the Otzar Beis Din system.
Being sold through Otzar Beis Din means the esrogs have kedusha and have to be treated properly. More specifically, being sold through the OBD system means there is a uniform price for esrogim, as you are not paying for the esrog, rather for the labor costs involved - checking, transporting, packaging, etc.
So, my question is, why are vendors selling these OBD esrogim using different rates for the different levels.
Does it cost less for the kosher-level esrog to be checked and transported than for the aleph-aleph level esrog to be checked and transported? They only know what level each esrog is after it is checked anyway. It seems to me that all OBD esrogim, no matter the kashrut level rating, should be priced the same.
Can anybody explain to me please how this sytem works for esrogim?
Most of the esrogim on the market this year are shmitta produce and are being sold through the Otzar Beis Din system.
Being sold through Otzar Beis Din means the esrogs have kedusha and have to be treated properly. More specifically, being sold through the OBD system means there is a uniform price for esrogim, as you are not paying for the esrog, rather for the labor costs involved - checking, transporting, packaging, etc.
So, my question is, why are vendors selling these OBD esrogim using different rates for the different levels.
Does it cost less for the kosher-level esrog to be checked and transported than for the aleph-aleph level esrog to be checked and transported? They only know what level each esrog is after it is checked anyway. It seems to me that all OBD esrogim, no matter the kashrut level rating, should be priced the same.
Can anybody explain to me please how this sytem works for esrogim?
------------------------------------------------------
Reach thousands of readers with your ad by advertising on Life in Israel
------------------------------------------------------
Labels:
Otzar Beis Din,
shmitta
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Related Posts
Some garbage excuse about the more "expensive" ones subsidizing the cost of the "cheaper" ones.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that most boxes this year are sealed and the sellers are refusing to open them. One producer is 'cheating' by selling in clear plastic sealed container. Baruch Hashem, my provider goes straight to the farm and is able to pick out the etrogim that had just been harvested before the sorters got to them. FWIW though, it seems tht even the cheap ones this year are fairly beautiful.
ReplyDeleteGreat Question!
ReplyDeleteThe main idea is that since someone would be willing to pay MORE of the expenses for a nicer esrog it is isn't fair to charge everyone the same price. So they divide it up so that A esrogim will cover 60% of the costs, B esrogim will cover 30% and C will cover 10%. Your still paying costs, and not the esrog itself, you are just paying a higher percentage.
so people buying C esrogim are paying less than cost?
ReplyDeleteit seems like a Robin Hood approach to OBD.. charge more to those willing to pay more and make it cheaper for those not willing or able
You pay for the cost of running the orchard, not of picking a specific esrog. It can't be based on the specific esrog because then the kiddushas shvis would transfer to the money used to purchase it, which would create a boatload of problems. I.e if a specific esrog costs more that is a major problem, but you can have A level esrogim covering 65% of the orchard costs.
DeleteIt seems somewhat to depend on the orchard they grew in.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, it actually does take longer to check the nicer etrogim. You have to spend more time and effort looking closely and carefully to ensure that it meets the higher standard.
ReplyDeleteRav Ariel paskened they are passul.
ReplyDeletewhat are passul?
DeleteAnd Rav Stav disagrees.http://m.kipa.co.il/jew/holidays/sukot/64597.html?utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=
DeleteRav Ariel paskened they are passul.
ReplyDeletehttp://m.kipa.co.il/jew/holidays/sukot/64597.html
ReplyDeleteGood share,
ReplyDeletegaza
We covered this in shiur today. According to Rav Eliashiv people are willing to pay more for better quality. The consensus was that we were not happy with that answer. Combining it with joe963 explanation it seems to make a little bit more sense.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that having higher quality requires more work to scrutinize the esrogim. Here is a thought experiment.
ReplyDeleteI pick 200 random esrogim from an orchard. First I give 100 to a checker and tell him to separate them only by kosher and non-kosher. "Kosher" includes everything from super-mehadrin to passable, basically for a chinuch set.
Then I give the second hundred to the same checker, and tell him to separate them into four categories: Grade AA (mehadrin), Grade A (very nice, but some flaws), Grade B (chinuch) and Not Kosher.
The second task will take significantly more of his time and effort.
You are correct, but that increased cost should still be distributed equally among the esrogim.
DeleteIf the cost was distributed equally why would anyone willingly take a Grade A and not a Grade AA?
DeleteYehoshua -- I don't understand your argument that the costs "should" be distributed equally among the esrogim. The demand for more mehadrin esrogim is what causes additional labor costs. The person who is satisfied with a kosher esrog (could be the same person -- e.g. a chinuch set) is not causing these labor costs, so why should he bear them?
DeleteMy understanding is that OBD can ask for payment for labor -- usually picking and transporting fruit from farm to the market -- but in this case sorting the crop into various grades. The more grades you want, the more work.
1: Even according to your though experiment, the second inspection results in the three levels. No additional time is expended in inspecting an AA esrog than in inspecting an A esrog. The posek looks it over and decides which pile to put it in. Therefore, the reimbursement for costs should be the same.
Delete2: It takes no longer than a minute or so to assign an esrog to a particular category. Being that there is about a 40 shekel per esrog price difference between the kosher ones and the Grade AA ones, if in fact the entire difference in price is due to the additional inspections, that would mean that the inspectors are being paid about 2,000 shekel per hour. Where do I sign up?
I was thinking about these explanations, and they really made a bit of sense . and then it just hit me - this is how business is defined in the free market. charge more to someone who is willing to pay more. the price of an object is determined by what someone is willing to pay.
ReplyDeleteso, with OBD esrgim, after all the nice explanations, they are still doing business with them,. They know some people will pay more, so they charge them more.
think of this -if the entire field cost lets say $100,000 to deal with - everything including labor, transportation, inspectors and everything else... then whats the difference if they charge every single person, say, 50 nis per esrog (100,000 divided by however many esrogim), or if they charge some people 35 and some people 75? at the end of the day, supposedly all the costs are being covered - nothing more and nothing less;. and the person buying the esrog doesnt know the difference, because OBD esrogim are sold in a closed box. he would just pay the 50 and get his kosher esrog, maybe a bit nicer maybe not.
what's the benefit of charging a scale of prices, if at the end of the day no profit is being made. why charge some people more and some people less?
to me it all still sounds like business.
I heard that precisely because of this fishy-sounding practice and its questionable justification (not chas vshalom to say anything bad about people who sell/use these esrogim) the Breur's community as policy uses esrogim from outside of eretz yisrael this year.
ReplyDeleteI know Im a few months late.... But it is a business...and you want to get your expenses covered. Im not sure you could sell "blank" esrogim from 50. The people who want to spend 35 would find that too expensive and the people willing to spend 75 for a A level Esrog would not pay 50 for a potentially C Level esrog.
ReplyDeleteAs long as you dont pay for a individual Esrog, rather for the labor costs and total sales cover expenses, why not make everyone happy?