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Apr 20, 2017
Goy claims his chametz and doesn't get it
And here is what can throw the selling of chametz into a bad light and make people want to not rely on it, or maybe their rabbi needs to explain to them what it means to sell something, even chametz....
Supposedly on the first day of Pesach in Williamsburg, the goy who bought the chametz of the through one of the rabbis of tens of families in the area decided he wanted to collect.
It seems this was a "new" goy that bought the chametz this year as the regular goy was not available. This new goy did not really know the process and what is really happening, that this is a halachically mandated sham of a sale and while it is legal and he could go pick up his half loaf of bread, he isn't really expected to.
Anyways, the goy paid his deposit for his chametz and then on OPesach he decided he wanted to pick up his stuff. He looked at the list of people he had bought from and picked one, randomly I guess, out of the list. He went to the house and said he wants his chametz and asked how much is there - can he load it into his car or does he need to bring a trailer?
The family panicked. They tried to warn him off saying things like he might be punished from heaven for this, or this is an issue of holy rabbis and he shouldnt get involved, etc.
Mr. Goy understandably got upset that his chametz was being withheld from him and went to the rabbi for clarification. The rabbi convinced him to come back later, on Chol Hamoed. At that time the rabbi explained to him what the sale actually is and how it works, and the goy understood and left them alone.
The story concludes with a request by the family to not have their name published so people shouldnt talk about them and question if they actually sold their chametz or not.
source: Behadrei and Matzav
The funniest part of the story, for me, is the last part - how they wanted to keep their name out of it so nobody would question their kashrus. As if the public perception is more important than the actual potential kashrus problem.
Yes, the sale of chametz is a halachically mandated sham, as everyone involved knows nothing is being transferred, but the halacha explicitly allows it to happen. That being said, if a goy comes to claim his chametz, I am not sure why anybody would get nervous about that and refuse. Just give it to him and collect your money. They probably thought if the goy takes it it will mess everything up somehow..
Supposedly on the first day of Pesach in Williamsburg, the goy who bought the chametz of the through one of the rabbis of tens of families in the area decided he wanted to collect.
It seems this was a "new" goy that bought the chametz this year as the regular goy was not available. This new goy did not really know the process and what is really happening, that this is a halachically mandated sham of a sale and while it is legal and he could go pick up his half loaf of bread, he isn't really expected to.
Anyways, the goy paid his deposit for his chametz and then on OPesach he decided he wanted to pick up his stuff. He looked at the list of people he had bought from and picked one, randomly I guess, out of the list. He went to the house and said he wants his chametz and asked how much is there - can he load it into his car or does he need to bring a trailer?
The family panicked. They tried to warn him off saying things like he might be punished from heaven for this, or this is an issue of holy rabbis and he shouldnt get involved, etc.
Mr. Goy understandably got upset that his chametz was being withheld from him and went to the rabbi for clarification. The rabbi convinced him to come back later, on Chol Hamoed. At that time the rabbi explained to him what the sale actually is and how it works, and the goy understood and left them alone.
The story concludes with a request by the family to not have their name published so people shouldnt talk about them and question if they actually sold their chametz or not.
source: Behadrei and Matzav
The funniest part of the story, for me, is the last part - how they wanted to keep their name out of it so nobody would question their kashrus. As if the public perception is more important than the actual potential kashrus problem.
Yes, the sale of chametz is a halachically mandated sham, as everyone involved knows nothing is being transferred, but the halacha explicitly allows it to happen. That being said, if a goy comes to claim his chametz, I am not sure why anybody would get nervous about that and refuse. Just give it to him and collect your money. They probably thought if the goy takes it it will mess everything up somehow..
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I have long thought the goyim should be encouraged to do this - pick one or two at random every year and claim it, to make sure everyone knows it's real. Part of the terms of the sale is that they pay an inflated price, so no-one should really have any problem with the goy taking it, as long as he pays up on the spot
ReplyDelete+1
DeleteI know a Rav who told me that he used to do this on Pesach -- tell the goy to go to someone's house and demand the chometz.
DeleteAlso, although the goy is supposed to pay, the person is not allowed to take the money, as that is benefitting from chometz on Pesach. So the Jew would have to let him take it away for nothing.
In other words, the family never intended to sell their Chametz, which means the sale was invalid, and they owned Chametz on Pesach, which is a violation punishable by Kares. And the Rabbi had no problem with this.
ReplyDeleteAnd people wonder why other Jews consider Charedim to be hypocrites and worse.
Correction: only eating results in Kares. Still, owning is a clear prohibition.
DeleteThe prohibition is a g'zeira d'rabbanan; not even close to karet.
DeleteBal yiraeh -- Bal Yimatzeh is deoraysa. Those who sell full chometz rely on the sale to get them out of it. (There are many who will not rely on the sale for that purpose, only chometz nuksha and the like.)
DeleteYou're right. I mispoke. For some reason, I was only thinking about חמץ שעבר עליו הפסח.
DeleteAvi, I wonder why you think this has anything to do with "Charedim". Sinas Chinam much?
ReplyDeleteThe website cited and that carried the (supposed) story is entitled charedim.
DeleteThe sale is a legal fiction; not a sham. And it isn't even really a fiction. Unless, of course, one has no real intent to relinquish ownership of their hametz. When we arranged the sale locally, I always delivered some of our actual hametz to the purchasing goy. An "initial delivery". And I made it clear that it is his, and he is entitled/expected to consume it. And we didn't ask for it back after Pesah. No different than if you purchase an item with a down payment, use it for a time, and then return it for whatever reason. Whatever consumption/wear and tear has occurred under normal use is simply because you really took ownership; even though the item was returned the rest of the payment not completed.
ReplyDeleteI think there is a famous story about Rav Vitman, current rav of Tnuva, who made this mistake when he sold chametz in his young years and the goy did come to empty out the warehouse.
ReplyDeleteI agree with SB that the goy should indeed randomly from a couple of people, with the selling rav's authority, go take something to validate the sale.
I recall buying svhiit grape juice one year and when time came to make it hefker, I was so happy, with a full heart, that someone actually took a bottle.