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Jan 9, 2020

Interesting Psak: Guns in Shul

There are a number of issues that must be dealt with when considering the question of people bringing guns to shul for security. The problem is current, with the rise in anti-semitic attacks in shuls around the United States of America.

Among those issues are:

  •   Pikuach Nefesh
  •   Muktze, on Shabbos
  •   carrying where there is no eruv, on shabbos
  •   women carrying guns
  •   bringing a weapon, an instrument of death, into shul, a place of prayer

There might be other issues as well, but these are the halachic issues that come to mind off the top of my head. I am obviously not going to write a halachic treatise about this, but from the shiurim and discussions I have heard on the matter, each issue mentioned above is hotly debated among the different halachic authorities.

A rabbi from Monsey went to Rav Chaim Kanievsky to ask whether the shul should place a guard with a gun outside the shul due to the danger.

When Rav Chaim refused to answer, saying they can do what they want, the fellow pressed on, through Rav Kanievsky's assistant/grandson/chavrusa/translator, insisting on receiving a real answer because the people want to do what Rav Chaim says is right. Rav Kanievsky concludes that a guard is not necessary and they do not need to hire a guard.

He then continued, asking if people coming to shul to daven can bring guns with them. Rav Kanievsky's response of pikuach nefesh was rejected explaining there is no immediate danger, there is no attacker in front of us, it is just a concern of a situation that might possibly arise. To that Rav Kanievsky answered that they can bring guns to shul.




Some people are very anti-gun, or at least opposed to the proposal that more people in the frum Jewish community should be applying for gun permits and be available for protection. Some people think this is a recipe for disaster and you'll have a bunch of hotheads all around town, in every shul and every supermarket who are not trained properly and will start shooting at every thing or person that looks suspicious. And with their under-trained eye and shooting skills, they will not just respond improperly and inappropriately but will also put bystanders at risk.

I am not really pro or anti guns. Carrying a gun does not interest me, but I am fine with other people carrying guns. Obviously anyone discussing the matter and supporting, or promoting, an increase of frum men and women applying for gun licences will also want those people to train in proper firearms use, and also in how to respond to terror and other attacks. Nobody wants a bunch of untrained people running around with guns that they treat like toys.

The "psak" above has been heavily criticized by people as being irresponsible and uninformed. I don't know what he meant beyond what he said, which was very little, but I highly doubt Rav Chaim Kanievsky wants a bunch of untrained people getting guns and shooting them at every new person who walks into shul because of a perceived threat. I am confident Rav Kanievsky was referring to people who have guns and are trained in their usage, or people who will get such training. It is not uncommon in Israel to see people in shul carrying guns, even if in Bnei Braq it might be a little less common. Rav Chaim's default and assumption is likely the assumption that people licenced to carry a gun are trained and required to go though rigorous training and oversight.







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3 comments:

  1. It takes a special kind of stupid to ask an Israeli Rav about a situation in the US. Gun culture is very different. Licensing is different. Essentially everything that could be different between Israel and the US with respect to guns is different. If you want to know the Halachic status with respect to carrying a gun, on Shabbos or otherwise, with an Eruv or otherwise, fine. But to reject the Psak as invalid because of differences in culture is stupid. Just because Rav Kanievsky said that it's permissible doesn't mean it's a good idea.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. right. the rabbi didnt ask if it is a good idea, just if it is allowed.

      Delete
  2. Rafi 343PM: This is not a thirty seconds discussion before Rav Chaim. As are most of these RCK videos.

    2. In the 80s, after a vicious mugging in Brooklyn on Friday night, rabbonim were discussing allowing people to carry "mug money" a few dollars to appease the druggies doing the muggings.
    Rav Meir Kahana Hy"D said : if you can carry mug money on Shabbat, you can carry a .22

    ReplyDelete

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