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Jul 31, 2023
Interesting Psak: camp abroad, in southern Israel
With the yeshiva world's bein hazmanim upon us, an interesting question arose.
It is common in Israel for yeshivas to arrange "camps" for their students for a portion of the vacation. They will organize a trip to a campus somewhere, stay a week or 10 days, have a learning schedule interspersed with hikes, interesting speakers, barbecues, singers, performers, and other events..
According to Hamechadesh, a yeshiva arranged a trip to a campus in Miztpe Ramon, down south. They got a good deal and it is a place with excellent views and surroundings, so they were happy with the arrangements.
One of the staff members raised the issue that Mitzpe Ramon is considered questionable if it is included in halachic Eretz Yisrael or if it is considered out of the borders and part of chutz laaretz. It is a matter of dispute, and its halachic status is considered questionable. This staff member asked how could the yeshiva arrange to take the boys out of halachic eretz yisrael for no good reason, no halachic justification, just for camp and a good time, and additionally among the boys would be kohanim, for whom leaving Eretz Yisrael is halachically even more problematic?!
Interesting question, even though as a kid I might think the guy trying to ruin our camp is just a douche..
The question was presented to Rav Yitzchak Zilbershtein, rav of Ramat Elchonon neighborhood of Bnei Braq. The question is what to do about this issue:
On the one hand, this is considered leaving Israel (if it is) for a mitzva, as the boys need to re-energize for the coming zman. Additionally they might not be able to find another location to relocate to at all, let alone at a reasonable price and if they cant go to the original location they might have to cancel the whole thing.
On the other hand, how can they go to Mitzpe Ramon and teach the boys that a "safek issur" can be ignored or dismissed?
Rav Zilbershtein discussed the various aspects of the issue, bringing the various opinions as to the halachic status of Mitzpe Ramon and concluded that it is indeed a real safek if it is Eretz Yisrael or not. He then also discussed the issue of leaving Eretz Yisrael, when it is allowed and when not. Being that it is allowed to leave for the purpose of a mitzva and this vacation for refreshing and re-energizing to learn is a mitzva, so even though initially they perhaps should not go to Mitzpe Ramon, after it was already reserved in error and they signed a contract, and it is a safek, and it is close to Eretz Yisrael rather than very distant, they can be lenient and keep the reservation.
Rav Zilbershtein added though that it is worthwhile to make it a lechatchila allowed trip and not just a bdieved. How can they do that? If they were to arrange shiurim and invite the local community, then it would be considered leaving to teach Torah which is allowed lechatchila. And they should have shiurim on these very issues - the status of Mitzpe Ramon, the issue of leaving eretz yisrael, etc among other topics..
Rav Zilbershtein concluded saying that nowadays it is common for people to travel abroad to vacation without even asking a rav if it is allowed. It is prohibited to leave Israel unless it is for one of a few specific reasons, and someone who is not careful about this can be considered a "mumar ldavar echad" - someone who intentionally violates a specific torah commandment and is not trustworthy in some matters because of it. That is in addition to all sorts of other problems that occur, such as improper environments and seeing immodest dress and behavior in the airports and abroad, and they can defile the eyes of the person and his limbs...
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The prohibition of leaving Eretz Yisroel is mentioned in daf yomi today!
ReplyDeleteI don't mean to be critical, but the word "douche" is probably inappropriate.
ReplyDeleteyou are right but I was being honest and that is what I would have thought... I did hesitate before using it...
DeleteHaving said that, it is accurate
DeleteI'm curious whether the same people that claim Mitzpei Rimon is not Eretz Yisrael buy produce grown in that area during Shmitta so that they can support Jewish Agriculture without relying on Heter Mechira or importing produce from non-Jewish growers.
ReplyDeleteThey said it's a safeik. So I don't see your point.
DeleteNot to mention it's at the edge of the desert, so how much agriculture is there anyway? From the pictures I was able to find on-line, not any.
Funny. Every day I take the train from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv and back, and every day there are large numbers of yeshiva bochrim getting off at the airport to fly to what is vaddai chutz la'aretz. The other day I was surrounded by a group of long-term learner American bochrim and each was going to another major European destination.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, there is a strong opinion that anything other Israeli sovereignty should be treated as halakhic Eretz Yisrael- for example we take teruma from produce grown down there, just in case- but of course that's not something these types would consider binding. (Would they go to Jordan*, though? The northern Sinai?)
*Jordan is not within the boundaries in parshat Masei and was never re-settled by Jews after the First Churban. But it is Eretz Yisrael.
A discussion of these halakhos is here:https://thehalacha.com/wp-content/uploads/Vol16Issue7.pdf
DeleteAcc. to that (1) the whole thing does not apply to someone from Chu'l who comes to Israel temporarily to learn and (2) one may leave EY to honor one's parents, so long as he eventually returns.
That probably covers most of the people you see.