Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought I saw an ad last week that said that they also had separate times on the bus itself for men and women.

I hope that it was just a poor translation on my part.

separate times on the bus? for buying cards or for riding the bus?

the bus 311 is (un?)officially mehadrin, but that only means women sitting in back, not that they can only ride or buy tickets at certain hours. That I know of at least..

Very strange concept, if you understood correctly.

It seems odd to have no time to buy a card except during normal working hours, when presumably the riders are not around. Anyway, I would presume that the child has to come to get his picture taken. Usually you fill up the card on the bus itself. For our rav kav (not mehadrin) only need to go to the office to get the card initially.

you could fill it up on the bus, but they recommend filling it in the office. Probably to avoid delays. the driver can't drive if he is filling cards. And if there i a line of people and some want to fill cards, that can cause a serious delay...

if they are catering, or if they think they are catering, to a "mehadrin community" maybe they think nobody works, so it is ok to have hours only during normal working hours...

In decades to come, when academics write papers on the history of the charedi movement's ever increasing swing to the right, this will go down as a pivotal moment. Nobody will want to be less frum than Superbus. The new standard has been set.

i called superbus to complain on 1700 700 181.
they told me that the residents of rbs asked for the seperate hours.
i replied that there was no survey and i was not asked.
i asked them why they are the ONLY store in the centre with seperate hours. Clearly the other stores do no mind
i also told them that they are a public service and should cater to everyone, eg bezeq does not have seperate hours.it is very inconvenient

they were distubed when i said that i am considering writing them an open letter to the press(my hebrew is not up to it)


Anyway i suggest you call and ask to speak to the menahel Eli Balilus.

good luck it is really impotant to stop the trend

Good job for calling Anon. I think anyone who is concerned by this should also make a point of doing so too.
The number is 1-700-700-181.

Rafi will you soon start having separate hours for reading your blog?

I just tried calling. After spending ten minutes on hold and being transferred between different phones of different departments, during which I was transferred 5 times to a different person/department, I was told by Eli Balilus' secretary (I guess) that I could not speak to him because he is the mancal, and by the way he is also in a meeting, I got in a word with customer service, who quickly transferred me elsewhere, etc.

When I got in a word with customer service, I said I would like to complain about the hours that having separate hours makes it very difficult on families to come down and buy cards. The lady said that people requested it. I said, "what people? nobody asked me. If they requested that way, I am requesting the opposite." She said hold on and transferred me to a secretary who screamed at me for bothering them and transferred me back to customer service who did not answer the phone. After another 5 minutes on hold I gave up.

Maybe I will write a letter.

Shimon - good idea, but I have to figure out how to enforce it

I am Rafi not Rafi G :-)

I just called their customer service and gave her a hard time. Pretended I wanted to go today and can't because it's women only... I also posted to the BS list and suggested that people call even if they aren't RBS residents. This is just unacceptable.

Rafi - growing up I knew like no other Rafi's... While the name is more common in Israel, it is still strange to have this problem of people confusing me with someone else...

Anyways, good move on your call. Maybe there will be a snowball effect and a lot of people will call and show them that more dont want it. then they will just have to have the cojones to stand up to the people who claim to speak for everyone.

They're going to have to change their logo if they want to be taken seriously as a haredi company - or at least stick a mechitsa between the boy and girl.

C'mon, why is anyone surprised by this latest move? My money is that it was sanctioned by the mayor. Who is in charge of transport in BS?

If I remember correctly, it is Shmulik Greenberg. from, that's right, Degel Hatorah.

If indeed the purchasing arrangements are difficult to the point of being a complete inconvenience, then there is nothing to worry about. The project will die on its own.

There used to be separate bus lines in Jerusalem; men or women only. The other sex would have to wait for the next bus. It died because no one, no matter how frum, was willing to wait with say 4 kids in the Jerusalem winter wet.

Same thing will happen here.

Superbus is a commercial organization - and WILL respond to consumer action.

This is a most unfortunate precedent; anyone who doesn't want to see this as a new trend throughout RBS, should make efforts to stop this Right Now!!

As a start, everyone should take upon themselves to call 1-700-700-181 ONCE EVERY DAY. Moan, ask to speak to the manager Eli Balilus.

If your Hebrew is up to it, write to the local newpapers - Tmura, Keren Ohr, Shopping, Hadash (well..err, scrap that one!).

Call Misrad Hatachbora (Ministry of Transport): Avishai Drori at 666-3121 and/or fax a letter of complaint to him at 02-666-3199.

For the Ivrit-Incompetent, could someone (Rafi?) write us a Pro-Forma Complaint Letter, so we can print, sign and send??

Then...every time you use a SuperBus, complain to the driver. Heh, and the gorking passengers!

Spread the word to people who don't read Rafi's blog (you'll find these neanderthals in the local caves).

No to Kannoim - I would be happy to write a pro-forma letter, but I protest your calling people who do not read this blog "neanderthals". I call them "potential future readers".

Ben - I was thinking about what you wrote, and while you do have a point, I am not sure it would work. People need the bus. That means they need bus tickets. They will have to go buy them, no matter how inconvenient it is.

RBSers can only repair this problem with a total boycott of Superbus. It cannot run on chareidi money alone.

By failing to boycott Superbus, we will serve notice to psychopaths in chareidi levush that we can be manipulated very, very easily.

The perverts who molested Dr. Singer's daughter, who crushed a women's car with 2 woemn in it in 2002, who set fires, hang black flags on Yom Azmaut and stole the dead body of a chareidi woman so they put it in a meal locker, are gleefully practicing their perversions with more and more open demonstrations of their weirdness and failure to adjust to reality.

REFUSE TO BE MANIPULATED BY THEM! FORM CARPOOLS. ORDER HOME DELIVERY. DO NOT SET FOOT INTO SUPERBUS UNTIL THIS INSANTIY ENDS!!!

Hi, I'm new here and thankful to David M. for pointing the readers of the BS list in this direction.
I work in translation. This issue is critical. I'd be happy to translate (for free, of course :) ) any letter anyone wants translated into Hebrew in the matter (though I can't promise immediate delivery, due to other life priorities...).
May reason, good sense and a healthy Yahadut be more loudly heard.
Bsorot tovot,
Rachely

RAFI:

"kannoim BS"

did you mean RBS? (or was the BS intentional?)

NO TO RBS:

"Superbus is a commercial organization - and WILL respond to consumer action."

doubtfully. considerations of threatened violence outweighs any consumer action

How can any selfrespecting Haredi be willing to fill there cards in an office that allows men and women in the same building? I refuse to take the 11 even for a simple trip down to the Mercaz. I want help make the Haredi line to be there most unprofitable line.

My fear is that if people refuse to use the office because of this arrangement Superbus will assume there is no demand for it in the Rama.

This comment has been removed by the author.

Next we'll be reinterpreting Tanach to show that all the wells (where the Avot and Moshe met their wives!) had separate days, and in fact, Boaz, being a Gadol Hador, must have had separate sowing and reaping days (er, um, leaves a bit of explaining to do for most of Megillat Rut, but I'm sure they can come up with something creative!)

LOZ - I specifically said BS, because I do not know who it is, and BS includes RBS. Also, I suspect it is the same kannoim, led by a certain rav, and they are mostly BS, not RBS.

B"H I have a car....I'm charedi and this bothers me. People need to grow up. I mean, seriously. I am pretty sure if some of my compatriots had their way, we would just put a giant mechitza down the middle of the country and put men on one side and women on the other.

Of course, then how would we have our 14 kids? And if we didn't have 14 kids to feel sorry for, who would give us money when we came door to door so we can stay in kollel forever?

To anonymous who recommended boycotting Superbus: while I agree with the goal of a boycott, that is a bit of an insensitive suggestion for people who take Superbus out of necessity because they don't have cars. Otherwise, I am all for any of the suggestions here (letters, phone calls, etc.) I also often feel at a disadvantage at getting my voice heard because my Hebrew is not on the level to write letters to newspapers, speak intelligently to city officials, etc.

Does the Law have anything to say about this?

What's the difference between this and a store saying "whites this entrance, blacks use that entrance"?

Anyone know about anti sex discrimination regulations here?

So to all anonymouses that feel that language is a barrier here - please send me your letters and I'll translate them.

rachely - are you "calling their bluff" or are you serious? if serious, please post contact info so they can send you letters.

does anybody have the email address for any of the local newspapers "letters" section? I would happily write a letter and send it to the papers.... I just don't have the address and don't have any old copies of the papers handy to check

The new standard has been set.

No, a new low has been reached.

Why don't we stage a protest-- Men should get together in large numbers and show up on the "wrong day". Is it legal for a store to only allow one gender in? I don't even use superbus but I would show up for that.

Contact details for local papers:

Temura - tmura.news@gmail.com
Keren Or - Fax 9992007
Shopping Mekomi: Fax 03 5488010

As well as letters they can print, they'd also surely be interested in reporting an Event. Such as a demonstration.

Any ideas?

Is there any way to get that shmooze that RYEW said - that you posted?

I cant print it for some reason. Do you have a hard copy?

Thanks

I only have the jpeg files. I dont know why you should not be able to print it...

I just sent a letter to Tmura. Tomorrow I hope to fax it to the other papers.

Dear ones, what is your real problem? How many times should you go to Superbus office in RBS? Maybe 1 or twice? so what is the big noise over the oppening hours for men/women? Take a deep look into yourself, you can use the mirror if you like and check from where does your hetrade come?
Only bus number 11 is Mehadrin and it goes through the more charedic neighbourhoods. Anyway considering the business aspect, Superbus is trying to accommodate with the population demographics changes in RBS. Anyway the station I have used is in the center of Beit Shemesh.

Dear Anonymous,
I've taken a look in the mirror just now, and I do not see any signs of Hatred. Nor in any of the postings here...
What I DO see is a concern that SuperBus is cow-toeing to just a small and extreme part of the population.
None of us want to live in Bnei Braq or Geula, which is why we're living here instead.
Separate hours for buying your bus tickets is a major shift in the norms of RBS/BS.
Unless we take firm & effective steps, every store, bank, public service will be required to keep these extreme practices - much like they are now all forced to post "Modest Clothing" signs in their businesses - or face violent reprisals.

There's no Hatred here, my friend; just Fear.

"Take a deep look into yourself, you can use the mirror if you like and check from where does your hetrade come?"

Whenever BS service is extended to the Rama it is placed in Bet. (ie Post Office). The Haredi then use the leverage to impose their way of life on those living happily in Aleph who want nothing to do with them.

There was the partially failed Mikvah coup and the violence starting to brew on the border with BS. What other rules are going to be imposed on residents of RBS?

Hi again,
Sure I'm serious. This is serious stuff.
You can send the letters to

schloss@netvision.net.il and I'll do my best to represent you accurately.

I feel very strongly about all this. The idea that women are perceived as constant threats to the welfare and well-being of the male gender is more than upsetting. I believe it is a deep, gross misinterpretation of genuine Jewish hashkafa (which opens up huge questions right there, I'm aware). As I understand it, and according to everything I've learned, God did not create women in order to constantly test, threaten or weaken men and their management of needs, resolve etc.. We are, both sexes, created `b'tzalmo' and ideally, should work together, to create and build. It is possible to have mutual respect and understanding. I am, obviously, not denying the existence, need or beauty of the romantic and erotic components of our human makeup. But I believe that God gave us free choice, wisdom, control and so many other tools to deal with them all, properly. As long as we're alive, we're always faced with challenges, but the extreme-Haredi approach of le'chatchila avoiding and being intimidated by the `other side' as if it's just there to make you fall and fail, is pathetic.
This long speech is just to prove my seriousness in the matter :).

Raxhely - kol hakavod. I encourage as many people as possible to take Rachely up on her offer. If you cannot write your own hebrew letter, write it in English, and Rachely will translate it for you.

in the meantime, the following is the letter I emailed this evening to Tmura:

שלום!
סופרבוס נכנס לבית שמש. אישית, רוב החוויות בינתיים לפחות, הינם שליליות. אוטובוסים שבכלל לא מגיעים, איחורים, עיכובים בגלל הטענת הכרטיס ע"י הנהג, וכו'. לא נורא, אגד גם לא היה מי יודע מה. לפחות יש עכשיו יותר קוים פנימיים, אפילו אם קשה לסמוך עליהם. נו נו. אולי ישתפר עם הזמן.

מה שמקומם הוא הודעה מטעם סופרבוס על פתיחת מוקד ברמת בית שמש. איזה יופי - מושיטים יד לאזרח! אבל אם שמים לב, רואים שהמוקד פועל רק במתכון "מהדרין" (אם בכלל יש דבר כזה) - דהיינו יש ימים עם שעות רק לנשים, וימים עם שעות רק לגברים. אין אפילו שעה אחת במשך השבוע שמשפחה יכולה להגיע למוקד ביחד.

מה קורה אם ביום ב' נגמר לי הנסיעות ואני צריך להטעינו? לחכות עד למחרת? מה אם נגמר לבת שלי הכרטיסיה ביום א'? היא צריכה לחכות עד יום ב'? לא יאומן.

אם באמת יש דרישה לשעות נפרדות, בסדר, שיהיה כמה שעות נפרדות לאלו שמעדיפים, אבל שיהיה גם שעות שכולם יכולים להגיע.

התקשרתי לשירות לקוחות של סופרבוס להביע את דעתי בנושא. העבירו אותי מטלפון לטלפון. איךשהו, הגעתי לשולחן של המנכל, אלי בלילות. המזכירה שאלה מה אני רוצה, וכשהתחלתי לדבר היא קטעה אותי ואמרה שאני לא יכול לדבר עם אלי בלילות מכיוון שהוא המנכ"ל! וחוצמזה הוא בישיבה.

בסדר, אז עם מי אני צריך לדבר? שירות לקוחות. אין בעיה אבל הם העבירו אותי אליך. היא העבירה אותי לשירות לקוחות, וכששאלתי למה רק במתכון כזה, אמרה "ככה בקשתם". מי ביקש? לא אני ביקשתי. חברים שלי לא ביקשו. אף אחד לא שאל, לא סקר, לא כלום, אז אם מישהו ביקש ככה, אני מבקש הפוך. הפקידה קטעה אותי ושוב העבירה אותי לשולחן של המנכ"ל והמזכירה שוב צעקה עלי והעבירה אותי חזרה, אבל הפעם אף אחד לא הרים את הטלפון, ואחרי 5 דקות התייאשתי.

זה לא מקובל עלי שהם נותנים לקומץ של קנאים לנהל את התחבורה בעיר, ואני לא יודע אם זה אפילו חוקי. אבל אם חשבתי שנסיעות גרועות מבחינת עמידה בלו"ז אבל אולי ישתפר, אני רואה ששירות לקוחות אפילו יותר גרוע. הם פחדנים ונותנים לכמה קיצונים לנהל אותם.

אני אישית מתכוון לא להשתמש בסופרבוס כמה שאני יכול, עד שהם יתנהגו איתי כבנאדם.

תודה

Excellent letter Rafi!
You're Hired!!

they were distubed when i said that i am considering writing them an open letter to the press(my hebrew is not up to it)

Be careful, some of these people can be very violent. Personally, I wouldn't put myself and my family at risk from the goons by publishing something with my name on it publicly. One of my friends was driven out of RBS by some of the Charedim through the use of intimidation and violence, and I wouldn't want to have to go through such a thing.

Mark

Of course, then how would we have our 14 kids?

Maybe the mechitza would have holes in it :-)

"What I DO see is a concern that SuperBus is cow-toeing to just a small and extreme part of the population."

This is the mistake many of you are making.These things are not coming from a "small and extreme part of the population

There are many "mainstream" rabbonim here that would support such ideas.

It wasn't a small or extreme group who smashed the TOV party. It was "recognized"and respected rabbonim in the anglo community.

It wasn't a small or extreme group who stole the mikva from Rav Spector and the rabbnut. It was the same rabbonim who were against TOV and whom many in RBS consider second only to Moshe Rabbenu.

Wake up my friends before these rabbonim twist and cherem you and RBSA into another RBSB, Kiryat Sefer or Beitar.

It is not the openly extremists that you must be careful of..it is those who speak one way and act another.

DO NOT GIVE TZEDAKA TO SOMEONE WHO IS NOT YOUR GENDER. Betters knock on my door, whisper "tzedaka," and I tell them through a closed door "No thank you. I have a job."

Personally, i have a Hebrew sign on my door: "I do not fund perverts, psychopaths or people who refuse to get jobs. Need money? Find work." Apparently few of the beggars read it. I wonder if they can read?

Watch how money affects Betters after we refuse to give it to them.

Give your funds to legitimate causes. Let perverts, psychopaths and lazy bums go to jail or to mental hospitals. Do not become their enablers.

BTW, the local paper keren Or also has an email address for letters, and not just a fax: keren_or@netvision.net.il - when I faxed my letter, they called me back and asked me to email it to them...

For those of you who are concerned about the level of power and control the kanoim have in RBS, and want to know more- check out this blog: www.rbs-achdus.blogspot.com
Personally, I think it's pretty scary stuff.

I personally am very happy (yes you read that right) that there are seperate hours. This way I don't have to deal with all the obnoxious men, who think that because they are male they should have the right to go first, like at the kupat cholim. I don't have to smell thier smoke! or be pushed around by them!
sorry but any lady who waits in line at the makolet or supermarket or kupat cholim know what I am talking about

anonymous - funny you should say that, because according to the halacha, women are never supposed to wait in line. Women are supposed to go first, for tzniyus reasons. Halacha does not say they should be separated to different days, but they should go first. I will look for it if you want the exact source, but we learned it recently in our shulchan aruch shiur.

Keep calling!!! Maybe it doesn't seem like such a big deal to people- especially those with cars but we have to do something because if not- Meuchedet and Macabi are next. They've been trying to have mehadrin health clinics for years. If we don't show them that there is zero tolerance for Taliban ideas in RBS_A this neighborhood will be doomed.

HAFGANA! DEMONSTRATION!

I received a call now from Keren Or; I explained the topic, and they are keen to give it coverage in this weekend's edition.
Yes - he has received an email on the topic (from Rafi?).

I asked if he would cover a demonstration - and he became enthusiastic. More newsworthy than opening-hours-in-an-office.

If we organize it for Friday, he will have it announced in his Thursday night printing.

Ladies AND gentlemen - are we ready to spend an hour on Friday morning to get this rectified?

Any ideas for something imaginative to make it different than other demos?

Who can help publicise the issue in general, and the demo in particular?

"funny you should say that, because according to the halacha, women are never supposed to wait in line. Women are supposed to go first, for tzniyus reasons. Halacha does not say they should be separated to different days, but they should go first."

Please give me the source, I would love to print it and hang it up in the kupat cholim and supermarket!

eli at superbus dot co il

don't tell him that you got his email from anonymous :)
As far as he knows, his email is easy enough to guess.

Please, don't bombard him with emails, that me work against the cause.
Maybe let Rafi G email him first, and see if and how he responds.

I'd be happy to email him

I just emailed him. I sent the letter I sent to the local papers, along with an explanation that I only sent it after his office gave me the run-around and would not talk to me about it.
I gave him my phone number of he should want to talk with me about the situation.

I'll let you know if he responds.

I think we should also be calling this Greenberg guy who is in charge of transportation in the mayor's office. The direct line to the mayor is 990-9801/2. I called and told the secretary that I was upset that I can't go there with my daughter. The secretary just laughed and said "zeh hegyoni" regarding the fact that there are separate days. I asked her how she could say that considering that there isn't one other store in the whole merkaz that has separate hours. She seemed to think it's a big joke. Are there any lawyers out there? Is this legal?

Eli Balilius, the Mancal of Superbus, just called me regarding the email I sent to him.

He explained to me that nobody told them what to do, nobody gave them instructions to be mehadrin. They even prefer not to be mehadrin, because a mehadrin format costs them more money.
He explained to me that what happened is that they opened such a station in the Kirya Haredit. There they opened it in the mehadrin format because of the needs and requests of the local residents.

They then decided to open another station in RBS. They did not ask anybody, they did not do a survey, nobody gave any instructions, when they finally found a location they simply copied the other location in the exact same format and opened up as quickly as they could.
Eli admits it might have been a mistake to open like that, but they wanted to open quickly, so that is what they did.

I recommended getting rid of the mehadrin, because in our neighborhood people do not like it. I told him we moved to RBS not Kiryat Sefer. He told me that in kiryat Sefer they are against mehadrin, but in Bet Shemesh they want it. I told him most haredim in bet Shemesh are also against mehadrin.

Anyways, I recommended he get rid of the mehadrin, or at least make some hours regular and some separate. He said they will consider it for a day or two and it sounds very reasonable so they will likely do it in a few days.

he did want it made clear that the decision to operate mehadrin was made by Superbus alone, and was not dictated by anybody

Thanks for emailing him.
I figured that he would be reasonable if one person would contact him directly in a respectful fashion.

rafi g - can you post the source for women going first? thanks (a different anonymous)

I will look for it tonight

Rafi, others.. so what about a demo?

Personally, I am not one who arranged demonstrations, against anything. if someone else wants to arrange it, go ahead.

On the one hand, it makes sense to strike while the iron is hot and demonstrate now, if someone will arrange it. On the other hand, if you believe the mancal, there might not be a point.

Haredi rabbanim must stand up and be counted in this latest example of fanaticism.

Thursday 5/2/09: I spoke with Superbus 1 700 700 181.
The first lady said that the decision to have separate hours was taken, and that's it.
She then passed me on to a second lady, Natalie, who said they're received loads of phone call and faxes about this, and that the 'directors' are aware of the situation and should make a decision Sunday/Monday next week. She then said that actually it was Eli Balilus who would make the decision.
Rafi - do you think that further action/discussion on this can be helpful at this point?

personally, I don't see a point. Let them make their decision, and then based on what they decide...

I would however suggest people continue calling and contacting them and letting them know your opinion

here is what I found, regarding women going first. There are [at least] 3 sources that I found. However, my assumption might be mistaken - it could very well be that these three cases are the exception and not the rule. i.e. it could be that only in these three specific cases do women go first, and one cannot extrapolate from these cases to a general rule. Or maybe you can.

1. The Aruch Hashulchan in Yoreh Dei'ah 246:32 quotes the Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 15:2 (if I remember correctly - it might be the end of 1) that talks about for a din torah, the case of a woman goes before the case of a man. The reason is (TAZ says) to avoid her being shamed - i.e. she would have to wait in line, and it would be embarrassing for her waiting to be judged.

2. Yorah Deiah 354:1 for burial - the burial of a woman goes before that of a man. The reason there is also tzniyus, but specifically because the body of a woman will bleed more, and be menuval.

3. Yoreh Deiah 291 says a woman goes first for collecting tzedaka, before a man. Also for tzniyus, so she will not have to knock on doors and collect for herself. However, this might only be if there is only enough money for one of them - if there is enough money in the kupa for both, maybe the man goes first? or whoever gets in line first? or maybe still the woman goes first so as not to shame her by making her stand in line?

That is what I found

Just "stumbled" on your site while trying to find a justifiable reason to not vote UTJ and was interested in the Superbus talk.

I live in Kiryat Sefer and other than a "theoretical" 1st 3 rows for men, there is little/no separation on the buses - neither do most of us want it. Never even heard of these travel cards but I doubt they would get away with separate hours anyway. Wish you luck.

anon - did you find anything, here or elsewhere, to justify it?

the smart card, as far as I know, is a new system superbus uses, because the misrad tachbura insisted. I understand Dan buses are starting to use them now in some places as well.

anon - does this justify it for you?

thanks. you might be right that you can extrapolate the value that on issues of tsnius we solve them with women first.