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Feb 9, 2009

Arabs for UTJ

So now UTJ supports equality...


UTJ is courting the Arab vote, claiming they will fight against Lieberman's racism.

UTJ MK Moshe Gafni says:
we are against racism and for the Torah, and the Torah clearly says 'Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt,'" (Exodus 23:9).
I, too, am against racism, and believe that all citizens have rights, but for Gafni to corrupt the Torah like that, simply so he can try to get some more votes to make up for the upset haredim who won't vote for him, is reprehensible. The torah is referring to a ger toshav - one who keeps the 7 Noahide laws. One who accepts jewish rule.

The Arabs of Israel do not qualify under either of those rules.

Court the Arab vote. Don't corrupt the Torah while doing it. Don't be a moiser - or is it ok to be a moiser when it is against a secular Jew, just not against a frum Jew.. and don't make a hillul hashem. You want to fight for the protection of minorities, go ahead. It is a worthy value, but there is a way to do it, and protecting people who call for our death and downfall, while condemning those who call for layoalty, is not the way.

If you were looking for a reason to not vote UTJ... you might have just found one... unless you are an Arab of course.

(source: Ynet)

25 comments:

  1. is this what daas torah has come to?February 09, 2009 4:12 PM

    Do Arabs also follow Daas Torah?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Why don't they just say that a Vote for Aguda is a vote for more "Yevul Nachri"?

    Much simpler, much truer.

    (And no rockets hit RBS from Gaza...)

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  3. if they can promise no rockets, I'll vote for them!

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  4. but they stay away from defense and national issues.. so it wont happen

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  5. I wrote this post too fast to think of all the funny and ironic lines...

    I guess that is what comments are for!

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  6. Thanks for posting this.

    It's typical of the Israeli Postmodern Newspeak doublethink that the word "racist" is used only when describing those of us who want to live as Jews, by Torah Law, on our historical land and who don't want to live as dhimmis under the thumb of Islam and its absurd Shariah law, nor as galut Jews in the ghettos set up by Christians.

    I hope that more people start making a big fuss about the racism of Islamic and so-called secular Arab parties.

    And also the racism of Peace Now and the other Torah-hating orgs who use their Jewish identity as a mask for what otherwise would be flat-out antisemitism.

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  7. thanks for commenting, Bob. EVeryone should know that Bob was the first one to point me to this, but at the time there was no source and nothing written on ynet about it...

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  8. Gimmel وينبغي عليك أن تفعل ما الحاخامات اقول لكم... نحن جميعا في التصويت

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  9. How do we know this is true. Has anyone seen photos of posters in arab villages. It wouldn't be hard for YNet to make up a graphic and post their normal, anti-Hareidi dribble.

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  10. funy accusation. I also saw the new item in other news media, such as walla news

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  11. Simon,

    I am very impressed by your comments on the blog here and your own blog.

    However I am perplexed! You associate with a school run by the very people who hold vote Gimmel or "go to hell".

    How can you personally reconcile this?

    In any case Kol haKavod on your intelligent and brave stances.

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  12. Thanks for your compliments!

    The school I'm involved in was specifically founded as a community, non-partisan school so I don't feel any personal conflict.

    If anything, part of the school's raison d'etre is to give options to our kids so that they won't have to pursue the lifestyle of dependence that political charedism seems to be trying to perpetuate.

    Warmly,

    Simon

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  13. Simon,

    That is good to hear. I would be interested in such a school but some of the rabbis running it give me concern.

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  14. Simon,

    'Political CHaredism'

    I have to say, that is a brilliant way of putting it.

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  15. I have just noticed something after reading this blog. It seems most of this community, including Rafi (and including myself), have a complex when it comes to gimmel. We don't like gimmel and what it represents and what they do, but we feel tremendously guilty not listineng to the advice/order of the gedolim. We therefore have to seek out reasons why it's ok not to vote gimmel.
    Rafi says it himself, "if you're looking for a reason not to vote gimmel..."
    that seems to be the trend. The gedolim say vote III, our gut is screaming not to vote III, so we need to rationalize why we can listen to our gut and not the gedolim. I find it fascinating.
    If you think about it a little more rationally, the fact that III has arab posters should really have nothing to do with whether or not you should vote for them. The gedolim still say to vote for them. and if you don't listen to the gedolim, then you dont' need this as a reason not to vote. So what has changed, nothing, the guilt is still there...
    Don't deny it, you feel guilty. And if you don't, you should

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  16. Gedolim, Ketanim and the rest of usFebruary 10, 2009 1:23 AM

    Observer,

    I don't feel guilty. "Gedolim" is subjective. This is not to take away from the learning of Rabbonim such as Rav Shteinman, Rav Elyashev, etc.

    However there are gedolim in other sectors of Klal Yisroel as well. Why should someone Sefardi feel guilty if he votes Shas (as per Rav Ovadia).

    Why should someone Dati Leumi feel guilty that he listened to Rav Lau or Rav Ariel?

    Do you Observer, feel guilty for not listening to the call of other great men who may say to vote other than Gimmel?

    I would think not. So too those who recognize that there are gedolim of all stripes and "colors"need not feel guilty for not voting gimmel

    ReplyDelete
  17. rest of us - you are wrong.A lot fo people feel guilty not listening to Rav Elyashiv, as he is the leader of the camp they associate with. Yes, there are other leaders of other camps, but if someone feels more connected to rav Elyashivs camp, then he will probably feel guilty when he votes for a party other than gimmel. If a person feels more connected to Rav Ovadia's camp, or Rav Eliyahu's camp or Rav Ariel's camp, or a differet ravs camp, then he will not feel guilty not voting gimmel. He might feel guilty not voting according to the statements of that rav.

    On the other hand, some people feel that by not voting gimmel they are defending his honor - the askanim who normally only listen to him when it is convenient, who shlep him out election time to make us feel guilty but then put him back n his house and ignore him until the next time it is convenient, are the ones who are harming his honor.

    Many people are saying we won't listen to "daas torah" one day, but the askanim dont listen for four years!

    Anyway, I actually chose that nusach because of a comment on a post a few posts back. The commenter wrote he stumbled on this blog while looking for a reason he could use to justify not voting gimmel.

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  18. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  19. Gedolim, Ketanim and the rest of usFebruary 10, 2009 10:55 AM

    Rafi,

    Read what I wrote.

    You are agreeing 100% with what I said.

    Depending on your camp your gadol may be different than someone else's.

    Observer said that if ÿou don't feel guilty, you should".

    Rav Elyashiv is not necessarily my gadol although i can respect him for his learning, tzidkus, etc.

    I don't feel guilty not voting for gimmel.

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  20. Certainly there is reason to feel guilty if you are Haredi, respect RYSE as a talmid chochom and do not vote. He is genrally accepted by Haredi world as the leading posek and if he indeed said AND TRULY BELIEVES its a 'chov kodksh' to vote - one need to have 'breite pleitzes' to aruge. Actualy ti takes a nice heap of chutzpa as well. Of course the 'lo sosur' bit is bat guano.

    but here is a story that eases my concousnes - Whenver the dudes asked R' Ruderman to sign something or a nother he would say - what does R' Yaakov Kamemtzky say about it? Cuase - "They can fool me bu they can't fool R' Yaakov"

    What I take from this story is that yes, there are very domineering and sometimes just misguided sometimes downright evil people who will resort to any form of heavy handed pressure and chicanery and kick the whole concept of Kovod haTorah down the terlet while hijacking the very same Kovod haTOrah for there own personal agendas.

    AAAAANNNNNND.....

    As R' Ruderman admitted - not every godol has the ability to see thorugh them and/or stand up to them.

    So anything said in the name of Gedolim is automatically suspect.

    I wrote more about his on Simon's site. Leaders vs. TCs vs Roshei Yeshiva etc.

    This topic realy bugs me cuz I see it as a tremendous chillul Hashem and pure sheker what is so accepted today in the 'street' this hijacking of TOrah opinion by a bunch of good for nothings.

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  21. in the mayda today soneone highlighted the hypocrisy of Gimmel people as RYSE clearly holds modern shoeitel to be ervah has said this - not to an askan - but in the middle of his Gemora shiur - and of course the askonim are quiet.

    You cannot have it both ways either he is an authority or he is not.

    "It is lies I tell you all lies!!!"

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  22. Please bear with me while I try to explain my reasoning and the basis for my conclusion.

    I didn't have the privilege of a proper Torah education and had to struggle for more than 10 years just to grasp elemental things. But I did have a thorough education in Classical Rhetoric (theory and practice).

    Everything in Western culture comes from Torah, including all the Greek and Roman ideas that are wrongly claimed to be the foundation of Western Civ.

    Torah is the foundation, and it's not too difficult to prove this.

    But a great deal of psychological and epistemological damage was done to us at the hands of the goyim who wanted to destroy Torah and replace it with their distortions.

    At one time, Torah schools competed with the Greek schools. Later with the Roman ones.

    Most people understand that the Judaism we have today came into being following the destruction of the Second Temple. But Jewish education wasn't diminished until the failed Bar Khokba revolt.

    After the Bar Khokba rebellion and the massacre of millions of Jews in Israel and around the Mediterranean, Torah schools became essentially clandestine operations. The galut mentality against which we struggle today came into being at this time and started shaping the minds of Jews.

    The Yeshivah system, while vital to keeping alive the memory of the Beit HaMikdash, more correctly resembles the Schools of Sophistry than the School of Prophecy established first by our Fathers.

    So today, when I hear the very bright Yeshiva bokers going back in forth in their pil-pul, tearing apart every statement of their opponent, and bringing down this and that quote, or standing on the authority of this and that Sage, I stand in flat-foot amazement at the absolute lack of progress. This, I think, is exactly the purpose of all this disagreement.

    How has it come about that our beautiful Torah, which Moshe Avinu told us isn't some complicated thing that's far away and impossible to do... how has this simple and effective system of government, courts, economics been turned into nothing but a playground for Sophistry?

    I say it's the poison of the galut. And it's exactly this poison that must be expunged. The poison of baseless hatred, egotistical power mongering, of cock-on-a-dunghill posturing. All of this has to go away.

    Why are none of the Gedolim saying this? Because they're comfortable in the galut mentality... the black iron prison of the Roman age that's still got us in its grasp.

    In spite of the overwhelming odds against us, we're here, living in this beautiful land, so very close to realizing everything our ancestors prayed for, and that we say over and over in the Shemona Esrei... Do you believe those words, or do you just say them like a robot?

    While in previous generations, the iron prison was literal, in our generation it's an illusion and we need only walk out the door, and up the ramp to Har HaBayit.

    I beg all of you Yeshiva educated fellows to use your considerable argumentation skills and turn them on the political powers that prevent us from having the Korban Pesach on Har HaBayit. This one thing will make a tremendous difference.

    Respectfully,
    Martin

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  23. Okay - I've done my mitzvah - been to vote. Still didn't know who to vote for when I walked in there. In the end I kept seeing those arabic posters in front of my eyes. So I voted Shas. Now I've got a guilty consciensce!!! Crazy huh? Won't even tell the kids. Oh boy!

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  24. I'm not sure what you mean is by "Arabs", as for many who are speaking Arabic, being a speaker of the language grants one such designation! What status non-Jews should have under jewish "dominion" over the Land of Israel (in quotes for the reason that many JEWS scoff at calling anything short of theocracy "soverignty"), has been a lengthy discussion - and there HAVE been those who suggested a ger Toshav status - and it is racist to say of predominantly-Arabic-poster-readers (whether ISRAELI-christianis ISRAELI-muslims or ISRAELI-druze), that they fail either/both counts required for a status under a secular state, simply for being cultural Arabs. Both charedim and arabs have many children and benefit from a state that supports children is a main reason to cull their vote.

    Druze, for example...
    http://rainbowcovenant.org/pages/MishpachaMagazinePassover2007.htm

    Rabbi kook the elders basis for shemitta;
    mishpat kohen 58 and 61

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