SodaStream (Soda-Club) USA. . 250 X 250 .

Feb 21, 2010

12 Questions

An Anonymous Guest Post

12 Questions For David Morris:

(We'll make it easy---True or False)

1) When your article in the JP first came out , the first claim you made to Rabbi Malinowitz was that you were just a mouthpiece for your Rav, who didn't want his own name on the statements there ( for personal reasons, which you stated , and which were perfectly understandable)True or False?

2)Your second claim ,made a few days later, was that you meant other Rabbonim, not Rav Malinowitz , chas veshalom. True or False?

3)Your third claim, made a few days after that , was that you said nothing wrong, or disrespectful ,or accusatory , in the article. That whoever reads anything like that into the article is just misreading it. True or False?

4)Your next claim, made a few weeks after that, was that there is merely a difference of opinion between Rabbonim about how to deal with the issues discussed, and that's all the article expresses. True or False?



(That's four different interpretations , given within a few weeks of each other)


5) It was patiently explained to you time and time again, by various go-betweens , that what Rav Malinowitz was troubled by--and what he was demanding a retraction of-- was the gist of your article, which was -- RABBIS-BAD, David Morris (and L.A. )--GOOD , (Everyone is invited to see the article and to decide for themselves)
True or False?


6)It was patiently explained to you many times that Rav Malinowitz is only not letting BTYA be used as a public platform for LA to make appeals from (since it would be incongruous to use the "bad guys" as a forum for the "good guys") , but that he is not saying that one should not give money or support to LA . In fact, when people asked him, he would say--"Go give them money, I have no problem with that" .

You , however , continued to state that LA was "banned" in BTYA, and that the Rav was stopping monies from being given to LA because of a personal pique with you. True, or False?

7)When before Rosh HaShana this past year Rav Malinowitz was continuously asked by LA to allow an appeal for them , he refused, saying that that would only happen after a public retraction from the RABBIS--BAD,DAVID MORRIS (and LA)--GOOD article (i.e, nothing had changed). Rabbi HG arranged for a meeting between you and Rav Malinowitz , which took place in Rav Malinowitz's office.
True or False?

8)At that meeting , you suddenly turned to Rav Malinowitz and said "Yes, I am accusing YOU of covering up for child molestors, protecting them,and hampering investigation of them" (or words to that effect)
True or False, David??(Think hard, because Rav Malinowitz spoke to Rabbi HG a few minutes after the meeting.)

9)Sometime after that, the LA Board demanded that you stop speaking about child molestation issues in your blog.True or False?

They also drafted various letters of "apology" , including claims of LA feasance to the doctrine of Da'as Torah ; Rav Malinowitz explained to them that they were missing the point, that there must be a clear explicit public retraction from the RABBIS-BAD,DAVID MORRIS (and LA)-GOOD article, and that Rav Malinowitz doesn't really care all that much if LA claims to follow Da'as Torah or not. There was some back and forth about an apology--Rav Malinowitz recalls, but is not positive, that he was mevatter on an apology, saying that the explicit public retraction would suffice. That never happened, as of today.

True or False?

10) In the present pre-Purim period, Rav Malinowitz was again approached by a few people about allowing an appeal for LA at BTYA. Rav Malinowitz responded to one such e-mail request with an e-mail of his own, sent as "reply to" .So we are not dealing with Rav Malinowitz "re-opening an old issue" , but with a private e-mail response to an individual , in response to repeated requests by LA.
True or False?

11) David Morris went and publicized a private e-mail , which had been sent as a response to a query by an individual. (Make no mistake--Rav Malinowitz stands by every word in the e-mail-------------but how ethical is it to present to the public a private e-mail as if it were written for the public, even one which says "you can show this to whomever you wish"? )

True or False?


12)David Morris used a device plagiarized from Rav Malinowitz himself, though of course in David's case it made absolutely no sense, since it was a private e-mail from Rav Malinowitz that Rav Malinowitz sent a questioner as a response to the questioner's e-mail.

True or False?

You see your problem, David:If you answer correctly,(TRUE to all the questions) , you will be admitting to underhanded unethical conniving behavior. And if you answer even one question as "false" , you will be a bold-faced liar, who therefore should not be trusted with public money. You see the problem that you yourself have created?

Advice: Come clean, apologize (an apology will now probably be necessary) , retract, and a fresh page can start.

P.S. If anyone has any story , or accusation, or complaint, against Rav Malinowitz's handling of any child-abuse case, please stop hiding behind a cloak of anonymity ; give your name, your story, and permission for Rav Malinowitz to answer completely and fully, withholding no information. It can be done through this blog.

118 comments:

  1. An article like that shouldn't be posted anonymously.
    Eli Duker

    ReplyDelete
  2. agree with Duker. Rafi, be very careful, when I first read the article I did not notice that it was an "anonymous guest post" due to the "google ads" noise on your page.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Agreed. Rafi your blog is better than this. I am personally rather disgusted that you would be willing put up something this one sided.

    ReplyDelete
  4. i agree also. at first, I thought this was your post. as well, it's very one-sided and not your usual style of questioning.

    please at least put a disclaimer up that is easier to read.


    anonymous attacks like this do not belong on your blog. tell whomever is asking to grow a pair of balls and post their real name if they want their point across honestly.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Not so bothered by the anonymous aspect. Unfortunately this topic is such a tinderbox in our community that anyone who touches it gets framed as a rasha by at least someone else.... Also Rafi wouldn't allow it without personally trusting it.

    Makes me wonder -

    Everyone knows there were a couple of BOTCHED cases of child abuse when the whole topic first came to light in the community. And it was very sad, and an outrage at the same time.

    And I support Lemaan Achai's participation in these cases, they seem to have a very delicate approach and consult with a range of professionals and advisors. I trust them.

    But if this argument is about Rabbis not apologizing for past mistakes - we're really wasting our time. Even if it's about forcing them to make some public statement (write 100 times....) "I will not interview the victim... I will tell them to report it to protective services... " - not sure if that's the way to go either.

    Now there's a community "fight" and people have been encouraged to take sides - Daas Torah vs. Justice for Children. Did the two sides have to angle it this way, that we actually have to choose?

    The Charedi vs. Dati Leumi fight will never be "won" - instead people need to work with each other more gracefully.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Rafi,

    it is silly to post this. There are so many missing facts, this letter is irrelevant.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I find it ironic that the posted posted this anonymously, yet he calls on others to "please stop hiding behind a cloak of anonymity"

    ReplyDelete
  8. While there may be some merit in the non-David Morris side of this story, the anonymity of the poster renders any discussions pointless. Some of these questions make some sense, others are just rants and illogical non-sequiturs.

    BTW, does anyone find the condescending "it was patiently explained to you" remarks strikingly reminiscent of another excommunication/ban/non-ban/advice, where R' Malinowitz was on the other side...?

    [yes, I'm posting under a handle, although it is even less anonymous than "Rafi G[--------]"]

    ReplyDelete
  9. "remarks strikingly reminiscent of another excommunication/ban/non-ban/advice"

    what are you referring to?

    ReplyDelete
  10. Come on, really? RBS's own internationally condemned heretic, Nosson/Natan Slifkin?

    I found the tone remarkably similar to the way FKM (whose name is at least 1/3 appropriate...) and others wrote, although I doubt a kollel guy in Yerushalayim wrote these questions...

    ReplyDelete
  11. I assumed it was something with Slifkin, but didnt realize you were referring to FKM...

    ReplyDelete
  12. There were a few others, but he's been the most consistent in his (dare I say childish?) condescension.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Rafi - I am currently at Ben Gurion airport (not travelling on my British passport, ahem).

    We all recognise the hand of Rav Malinowitz in this anonymous article (TRUE or FALSE?), and I will respond in due course, on that basis.

    ReplyDelete
  14. As for one-sidedness claims,
    now THAT is seriously ironic considering that all we've been hearing until now is the other side.


    I am interested in David Morris's response.
    (especially to #8)

    Solly G.

    ReplyDelete
  15. my opnion - cancel the post- it just will breed more lashon hara.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Let me see, abuse victims hiding behind a cloak of anonymity? A question, then. Would the Rav like us to reveal the name of the "alledged" abuser that davens in the shul? He knows who this person is, but when asked by the childs mother to help enforce the police restraining order against this man by keeping him away from other children, including the victim,this was not done. Does the Rav believe that there is no danger to other members of the shul from this man who already has several files open from different victims, or is he willing to take that chance? Does the Rav believe that I should post my name, thereby exposing our family to contempt from our fellow shul members because ...gasp..we went to the police! Lemaan Achai helped us every step of the way through this harrowing ordeal with our 5 year old. Would we have received the same attention and kindness from the shul? I am choosing to remain anonymous to protect my child. The Rav knows who I am.I have no qualms about publishing the name of the perpetrator if that is what the 12 questions is demanding.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Rav Malinowitz,

    I will identify you as you won't yourself.

    I am the parent of the child that was abused by a rebbe over the course of several months.

    I am the parent whom you instructed David Morris to go to the tznius police to deal with this rather than the child protection services.

    I am the parent who had to wait for proper tipul for my child while you "pittled" with the tznius police inverstigation.

    I am the parent who finally received a report from the tznuis police that they concluded that the rebbe DID in fact do this crime and was being uncooperative.

    I am the parent who sat by and had to read that you still wouldn't give the green light to go to the authorities so that my son could get proper tipul.

    I am the parent who heard people (VERY close to you ie YG) say in your name that this didn't happen to my child.

    I am the parent who heard from the police that the involvement of the rabbis and the tznius police tampered the case, therefore ruining a chance at prosecution.

    I am the parent who, along with my family, lives with this crime and your mishandling of it each and every day.

    And finally I am the parent, Rabbi Malinowitz, that from the time that you found out about this case and until today have not once asked me, "how is your child doing"? "How are you and your family holding up?

    Even if you truly believe that it didn't happen to him and 4 of his class mates there is nothing wrong as a rav, talmid chochum and fellow Jew to just reach out and express concern.

    ReplyDelete
  18. since it would be incongruous to use the "bad guys" as a forum for the "good guys"

    What on earth does that mean? If Lemaan Achai is a worthy cause, why not let them make an appeal in the shul?

    By the way, this letter was obvious written by Rav Malinowitz, his writing style is very distinct.

    ReplyDelete
  19. David Morris, in my opinion made a big error in judgement. At the end of the day, he will only de-legitimize himself and LA. When all the dust settle's I can only see trouble for him. David should never have been made this letter public and if he had the guts he would have gone straight to the source and discussed it with the Rav of BT. The problem is that he is fearful of Rav Malinowitz and for good reason. This article, and clearly the point of this anonymous posting, is that he does need to apologize for the original JP article. Rav Malinowitz is not the only person to have felt the "Rabbis bad - DM LA good" in the JP article. He is scared to confront the Rav because he knows that he is wrong, and he has not made the appropriate apology. Yes, I have read his supposed apology but he doesn't come out and say it. Come on David - it's not so hard to admit a mistake. It's one thing to criticize the way child abuse is handled and suggest improvements, quite another to suggest that the RBSA Rabbi's are the people at fault here, and that DM and LA have all the answers. It's much easier to sit and criticize from the sidelines, than actually doing the behind the scenes that needs to be accomplished. Child abuse is a terrible human condition and those familiar with the court system will be the first to admit that the police and the courts cannot get justice and cannot protect the public as much as they would want. Neither can the Rabbis - there is no absolute solution for this problem, and yes, I'm sure the Rabbi's themselves want the best solution possible for this problem. PEOPLE SHOULD BE CIRCUMSPECT BEFORE POSTING NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT VERY HONORABLE PEOPLE - ESPECIALLY SOMEONE OF THE CALIBER OF RAV MALINOWITZ. I have found that in all these posts and especially when saying negativity about others - there is another side, and anyone who is not involved (and sometimes even those involved and upset) cannot get a clear picture of the truth. Disrespecting any true talmid Chochim in the manner that has been done on David's blog does not come from a good place. The rewards for slandering a talmid chochom are not the rewards anyone would want, ask Korach. There is a saying in UK politics - the person that kills the king/queen will never rule. David - take my advice and pull your post, and apologize. You cannot achieve good for LA, yourself or anyone else without moving on. Don't loose sight of your goal which is to protect the children - and you are not doing that by showing disrespect to the Rabbis. The Rabbis in their positions as leaders of the community are involved, like it or not, and I don't believe anyone who says they could do a better job. I feel that Rav Malinowitz has been circumspect and has bent over backwards by only focusing on what was wrong with the JP article. Lets face it - it was disrespectful to the Rabbonim of RBSA, and therefore disrespectful to the Torah, and I'm sure that Rav Soloveichik himself would advise an apology and lets move on!

    ReplyDelete
  20. Hillel, why is it inconceivable that the rabbis might not be doing the best job? Did the Gedolim in America do the best job when they covered for the molester Kolko for many years? I'm not saying that the rabbonim here acted wrongly, but it's certainly conceivable. And if someone very involved in the community feels that they did act wrongly, it's not "going against the Torah" or "disrespectful" to say so. That's a very naive approach. Rav Malinowitz himself has criticized the Gedolim on occasion for acting wrongly.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I dont know either side personally, though both by reputation.

    Despite the tone of the post, I hope Rafi does not remove it, despite a number of calls here to do so. I see that some benefit can come of it. This is the first time we are hearing any public statement from the "other side" in this argument.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Hold on everybody. The post is not coming down.
    I see no reason it should cause lashon ha'ra. The only thing I am worried it might cause is disrespect. For that I have to trust you - my readers and commenters, that no matter which side you are on (unfortunately it has come to that), you will not write disrespectfully about the other side. Write what you want, why the side you support is right and the other wrong, but do so respectfully. Neither side supports abuse, it is a matter of approach, and clearly the issue isnt even that.

    So be respectful and there should be no problems.

    ReplyDelete
  23. WARNING: nobody can accuse anybody by name on this blog without first clearing it with me in advance.

    If you do, the comment will be taken down as soon as I see it.

    If you want to name a name, write to me offline first. My email address is well known, but if you dont know it it is israeli.jew at gmail dot com.

    give me your information and suggest how I can confirm it, and I will do so. You can even send it to me anonymously (set up a fake email address to send me the email) - I dont need to know who you are.

    I dont know much about the law, but I am sure there must be some law against accusing people by name and some sort of liability and slander issue. If a name will be posted, I have to first make sure there is something to it.

    ReplyDelete
  24. TRUE or FALSE?

    That the Rav of a large anglo shul in RBSA spoke to a group of women about the issue of child abuse (after it hit the papers) and after telling people to turn of the tape recorders said:(paraphrase)

    you shouldn't go to the police or authorities with abuse allegations

    My wife, who attended says that this is TRUE.

    Did anyone else out there hear a similar story?

    ReplyDelete
  25. to tell the truth - I was saving this for another post, but I will write it here as well. While David Morris proposes going to the police, the Dati Leumi community in general does not. Their approach in the Rav Elon case was extremely similar (with some differences) to the approach used by Rav Malinowitz and other rabbonim. They went to a vaad tzniyus to privately investigate before deciding whether to go to the police or not, and the Dati Leumi used a group of people (rabbis and others) called Takana who would investigate before deciding whether to got to police or not.
    At the end of the day they pretty much agree on the method, with slight differences. It seems most rabbinic figures want to make sure there is something to the claim before they would recommend going to the police with it.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Get you facts straighterFebruary 21, 2010 12:09 PM

    Rafi,

    Your post has untruths.

    Rabbi Elon's victims were over 18 and not under child protection laws.
    Also, Takana worked together WITH the LAW, not outside of it.
    They follwed very closely and tried to keep him away from potential victims.
    The rabbis here in RBS sent the accused back into the classroom.

    VERY different approaches.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Yes, my wife was there at the rabbi's talk. Confirmed: He said that we should go to the rabbanim and not the police.

    Hillel, unfortunately there are details you are not privy to. Therefore, you are entitled to your opinion, but know you are unware of how people have been hurt and by whom. Not to mention the subterfuge going on here.

    Rafi, the abuse problem and how it is dealt with is a serious issue.
    Is this post contributing to that discussion? We have a wonderful community, but this issue needs to be dealt with in a mature manner (not "backroom solutions".)

    ReplyDelete
  28. Rafi, as Get Your just said you are quite off the marker here.
    Another big difference is that in spite of what the Dati Leumi world was going through Gush Katif and Amona, (and the people dealing with the case were on radically different sides of the spectrum),they managed to band together to deal with a matter concerning someone who was percieved as no less than a Gadol by many within their camp, and push him out of the DL Torah world entirely.
    The Litvish Charedi Rabbonim here were unable to keep a first-grade Rebbe from getting a job teaching in a Litvish Cheder in the same neighborhood.
    The second R Elon started invoving himself in anything that went against what he agreed to, Takanah went to the media and warned the tzibbur.
    What happened when Tokash hired this guy?

    Moreover, do you really think that R Lichtenstein and R Ariel are against going to the police in cases regarding young children like what we had here?

    ReplyDelete
  29. maybe I am not as aware of the details of what happened and what process they used. It looks pretty similar.
    Your question as to what they would do in a case of a young child is just an assumption. They might treat it differently they might not. You dont know any better than I do unless you heard them say so straight out. I didnt hear them say they would deal any differently with such cases of minors, and unless you know differently, you cant assume they would.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Ben - I agree, but since it wasn't, I see this as the opportunity to finally begin doing so.

    ReplyDelete
  31. i heard takanah on the radio and they advise everyone to GO TO THE POLICE.
    They also deal with people wtho refuse to go to police, but they work with the law and discuss issues with manny mazuz.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Wondering.... and others.

    I used my words carefully " ..I don't believe anyone who says they could do a better job"

    I'm not saying that they couldn't do better, what I am saying is that I doubt that anyone else who SAYS that THEY could do a better job, would do better if they were in the Rabbi's shoes.
    Surely, everyone agrees that it could be done better, but how, is not always clear. Avot says that one should not judge others until one is in 'their place'. I personally have very strong views on the subject of child abuse, I feel deeply the pain of a grieving parent. Nothing can prepare a person for their child being hurt in any way, especially in this manner. It's important to remember that nothing in this world happens without Hashem, and yes, in every situation the natural tendency is to find a scapegoat and someone to blame. I'm not convinced that the grieving parent would have necessarily found justice, or feel any better had the process been handled by the police from the start. One of the problems is the openness of a police investigation and a court trial can be very draining and not provide the sought after relief - and their names would probably become public knowledge. Children unfortunately are not the greatest witnesses and convictions are not always easy to get.
    We all need to take responsibility for our own decisions, and consulting a Rav is one of those decisions. I have heard of great Rabbis clearly told and tell their members to go to the police immediately, so there are choices.

    I do see the benefit of open and honest criticism, without bad mouthing anyone, and it's clear that many mistakes have been made and it's essential that a better system is put in place.
    I openly suggest to all involved that a protocol for reporting child abuse be established in Ramat Bet Shemesh by an all inclusive committee of Rabbis, professional counselors, parents of victims of abuse and past victims of abuse - and that different options and methods of reporting be authorized by all involved as legitimate.

    ReplyDelete
  33. I just want to say that I am so happy that we went to the police to protect our child. One day the abuser will sit in jail for what was done to my child. I cannot wait for the "Rabbonim" to get to the next world and have to answer for the HELL they have put my family through. I hope nobody in this community has to ever turn to the police to report what was done to their child but if God Forbid you find out that your child was abused, run to the police and don't bother wasting your energy that you need to be supportive to your family with the Rabbonim in this community. We learned the hard way. Think for yourselves and do only what is good for your family. The Rabbis don't care. They will twist and turn what you say and they will be of no help in the end. Save yourselves.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Hillel, although you are correct in that the victim may not find justice within the police department, nevertheless, the victims are saying they did not get help from the Rabbanim.

    Instead, "at best" the molester is sent to another neighborhood. So we have this "exchange" program going on--which obviously is not a solution.

    ReplyDelete
  35. The following is taken from Takanah's website יש להדגיש כי מודל הפעילות של הפורום, שהובא לידיעת היועץ המשפטי לממשלה, אינו בא להחליף את רשויות המדינה. הוא עומד לרשות הנפגעים רק במקרה שאינם רוצים או אינם יכולים, מסיבותיהם האישיות, להתלונן במשטרה, ויחד עם זאת הם מבקשים שייעשה עימם צדק, וכי הפוגע שניצל לרעה את מעמדו יורחק ממרחב הפעילות שאפשר לו ניצול זה, על מנת למנוע מאחרים להיפגע בעתיד, ועל מנת לשמור על הערכים המקודשים שעל פיהם מבקשת קהילה דתית לבנות את חייה.
    Rafi, you still don't see the difference between R Malinowitz and Takanah?

    ReplyDelete
  36. I dont know his policy completely, but I do know that if he believes there is something serious in the accusation he also would send him away from the situation. If he is less sure but still has reason to believe it, he would institute a "mashgiach" so that the accused is not alone in the classroom with the kids.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Rafi, I meant this statement יש להדגיש כי מודל הפעילות של הפורום, שהובא לידיעת היועץ המשפטי לממשלה, אינו בא להחליף את רשויות המדינה

    ReplyDelete
  38. to that I would compare what Rav Malinowitz has told me (I did not ask recently so I dont know if this information is current or perhaps not detailed enough) - he too supports going to the police but only after the accusation has been completely vetted and found out to be true.

    At what point that is reached I dont know, and maybe there is a difference in how sure they have to be before they go to the police, but you are finding minor differences. Overall the processes are pretty similar. So they go to the police at point A and he goes to the police at point B.
    The idea of both is the same - they want to make sure there is basis to the claim before going to the police.

    I dont want to argue which method is better or maybe neither are good enough. I dont know and I am not qualified to offer an opinion on that. I am just saying their methods are fairly similar, at least at the level that the average person will have analyzed these methods.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Rafi, you're missing the point. R Malinowitz discourages anyone from going to the police.He encourages people to come to him and then he will decide whether or not the poilce should be involved.
    Takanah on the other hand was founded to deal with cases in which either no crime under Israeli law was commited, or where the complainents themselves are unwilling to go to the police.
    That's not a minor difference.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Why are we told to go to Rabbis with abuse cases. Are they professionals in this area? Have they gone to school for investigations? Are they on staff for the police?

    When someone is robbed, do they call their Rabbi?

    How many more children will suffer abuse in this community because the Rabbis are taking over the job of the police. The Rabbis know that their congregants will listen to exactly what they say. Is RBS turning into some type of Chareidi cult? Where is our thinking process. We need to stand up and speak out not to ruin the Rabbonim and their status, but to stand up for Sheker. These are little children who cannot stand up for themselves. Thank God the children are coming forward and speaking out. Now let's help the children and make sure noone else's children are at risk. It is only to our advantage to bring this undercover matter out in the open. All of our children will be safer.

    Rafi, please try to look at the other side and realize that you are causing more pain to the families that have had to deal with this issue. Try to be a little more open minded and I hope you never have to approach Rav Malinowitz or some of the other Rabbis for help in this area because you are sure to be dissapointed. All of our faith cannot be put into our Rabbis anymore. They are just people, like you and me. Maybe they learn a little more Torah, but lets be honest. They are getting a paychek and they are just as real as you and I.

    Abused Children = Abuser needs punishment - jail time.

    ReplyDelete
  41. if that is the case, then I stand corrected on that. I am not sure when it first started 5 years ago if that was the case. Perhaps they have improved their system.

    I am reading in other places, in Dat Leumi blogs and the like, that they feel about Takanah pretty similarly to the way people feel about the local situation - they dealt with it not quickly enough, hid him away for too long, should have revealed him sooner, involved police sooner, etc.

    Again, I dont want to say what method is better. I dont know.

    It is easy for us to second guess them and say we know better, but they have their methods that they have developed, and hopefully are improving them all the time with each sad experience that comes before them.

    ReplyDelete
  42. They protested the Ma'ar but I didn't know what that was so I didn't object.

    Then they came for the mikve but I'm not a woman so I couldn't care less

    They came against David Morris but I don't realy know him so I didn't stand up.

    Then they attacked Lema'an Achai but I said I give to Kupa so I didn't protest.

    Then my child was abused and alas there was no one left to stand up for us.

    ReplyDelete
  43. I have not told anybody what to do in a situation that they suspect their child was abused. I will not give anybody any advice in this matter. I am unqualified. If you are in that unfortunate situation you should do whatever you think is the right move to help your kid and yourselves in that situation. I am not going to tell anybody what to do and that is not the discussion here.

    I did not bring this topic up - David Morris publicized a private letter. I dont think he was wrong for doing so, as he had to be concerned about his organization, but the result is that he brought this issue to the public attention again.
    I was then approached with this post, considering how Rabbi Malinowitz was being slandered and accused on the tzedek blog, and I expect David will eventually respond, though he is in transit now I understand).

    Please dont look at this as me raising an old issue and causing the families to feel their pain again. I did not raise the issue, but allowed this to be a venue where an issue already raised would possible finally be able to find some resolution as the sides air their issues and maybe find common ground, as no other venue was working. Hopefully this venue will help them progress on this issue

    ReplyDelete
  44. You may send this to whomever you wishFebruary 21, 2010 3:07 PM

    "You may send this to whomever you wish"

    Rav Malinowitz wrote the above sentence in his letter which means it was NOT private

    ReplyDelete
  45. The Sound of SilenceFebruary 21, 2010 3:13 PM

    1 Question

    TRUE or FALSE?

    That the Rav of a large anglo shul in RBSA spoke to a group of women about the issue of child abuse (after it hit the papers) and after telling people to turn of the tape recorders said:(paraphrase)

    you shouldn't go to the police or authorities with abuse allegations

    If this Rav answers TRUE he is admitting that he flaunts the law and puts our children in danger.
    If he answers FALSE he is a bold faced liar and should not be trusted with any questions asked to him.

    ReplyDelete
  46. I don't see it as being self-evident that David Morris intended the J Post article to be a "LA-Good, Rabbis-Bad" article." From what I recall he was interviewed and quoted-does this make him guilty of smearing the rabbis?

    If there is good will I think a modus vivendi can be found. The fact that Rav Soloveichik does not agree with Rav Malinowitz on his approach towards dealing with chil abuse doesn't mean that shalom can not exist.

    ReplyDelete
  47. I demand that THE RABBIS take upon themselves the responsibility of calling for a spirit of peace and achva between our different communities DESPITE what may be severe disagreements regarding child abuse. Are the disagreements here greater than the differences between our respective communities and Satmar and Toldot Aharon whose communities sometimes implicitly advocate unjustifiable violence, and yet who are allowed to raise money in our communities. If the striped Hassidim can raise money in our shuls then at the very least our rabbis, Rav Soloveichik and Rav Malinowitz must do everything in their power to create an atmosphere of peace despite the differences on child abuse.

    All the efforts of those who have had events trying to promote achdus are meaningless if these two rabbis can not get along.

    Why bother with perhaps hypocritical achdus efforts (which have taken place within the bounds of Bais Tefillah) when these two pillars of our community can not make such a joint effort?

    ReplyDelete
  48. Why is Rav Malinowitz so adamant about this issue?
    I read the JP article a dozen times. David mentions a "rabbinical authority of a school"
    Does this condemn all the rabbis of RBSA? I hardly think so?
    Rabbi Malinowitz's obsession with this topic and crusade against David and Lema'an Achai begs me to think that there is much more than meets the surface.
    I would have thought that as a great talmid chochum and rav it would have been handled differently from the Rav's side.
    He is an authority figure and someone everyone in RBSA looks up to.
    I thought that talmidei chochomim bring shalom?
    Isn't it ironic that the same maamar that says "talmidei chochomim marbeh shalom" ends off with Lema'an Achai vraei?

    ReplyDelete
  49. "Rav Soloveichik and Rav Malinowitz must do everything in their power to create an atmosphere of peace despite the differences on child abuse."

    Excuse me, Rav Soloveichik has never name called, attacked or punished the poorby calling for bans. He has simply stated his concern for how real child abuses cases in this community were handled.

    ReplyDelete
  50. I did not mean to claim that Rav Soloveichik has done or said anything wrong. To the contrary I think that Rav Soloveichik is a beacon of light. However, I think that these two rabbis need to raise the level of peace between them so that peace will reign in our community.

    There is always going to be an issue which creates tension and I'm not saying that such issues need be ignored.

    But, Rav Soloveichik and Rav Malinowitz together can bring peace to our neighborhood and cause it to remain the great neighborhood that it is.

    ReplyDelete
  51. David Morris wrote a Jewish Press article in January.(after the apology)
    Here's a quote
    "A further cause for concern is that community rabbis balance a wider range of interests than solely rooting out the guilty and protecting their victims; they have a number of community interests to protect and their concerns about damage control can weigh heavily against the pure pursuit of justice."

    ReplyDelete
  52. Ish Tzadik Haya...February 21, 2010 3:58 PM

    The attack on David Morris can only be from the "sitra achra".

    He is a holy Jew who excels in mitzvos Bein adom la Makom and bein adom l'chaveiro.

    How many people from all walks of life in this city have turned to him to find a listening ear and caring heart.

    His chesed is without any reward "bhai alma" and as we can see...farkerht..he gets attacked and criticised.

    His words in the JP were out of frustration for the serious issue of abuse in our community and what he sees as a lack of proper protocol.

    Even in that case there wasn't a vicious attack or slander...just an observation.

    The response and attack on him however has been "disproportionate" making one think that it can only be from the sitra achara.

    Only a holy person such as he who does things l'sheim shomayim would merit the satan to come in his way to try and silence him.

    How else could one explain some of the garbage being thrown at him?

    David, chazak v'ematz!

    ReplyDelete
  53. The Rest of the Story...February 21, 2010 4:12 PM

    David Morris wrote a Jewish Press article in January.(after the apology)
    Here's a quote
    "A further cause for concern is that community rabbis balance a wider range of interests than solely rooting out the guilty and protecting their victims; they have a number of community interests to protect and their concerns about damage control can weigh heavily against the pure pursuit of justice."

    Anon,

    Do you always read only one part of an article?
    I urge everyone to read the article in its entirety to see the whole picture of what is being said.

    ReplyDelete
  54. The Sound of SilenceFebruary 21, 2010 4:19 PM

    Another One Question:

    TRUE or FALSE?

    And finally I am the parent, Rabbi Malinowitz, that from the time that you found out about this case and until today have not once asked me, "how is your child doing"? "How are you and your family holding up?

    I hope that Rav Malinowitz can only answer FALSE on this because if it's TRUE it will be quite troubling.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Rafi, I have two questions:

    1) How much therapy does it take to heal a child who was molested? (or not really molested according to the Rabbis in our community - its all in the child's imagination)

    A) six months

    B) 5 years

    C) a lifetime


    2) How much does this therapy cost per session?



    a)$20

    b)$100

    c)$250


    Should we try to do all to prevent a child from getting abused or should we let the Rabbi's do what they want with our lives. It takes a lifetime to heal and thousands of dollars which can tear a family apart both emotionally and financially. There are people who do not want to keep the Torah anymore because of the way the Rabbis have treated them.

    All Lemaan Achai was trying to do was set an awareness in the community and prevent more damage from being done. Do you really believe deep down in your heart that Rav Malinowitz and the Rabbis that join with him are doing the correct thing by letting little innocent children get hurt. This is just outragious. When will everyone wake up. How dare Rav Malinowitz and some other Rabbonim in this community (which I prefer not to name) cause harm and damage to Lmaan Achai. Don't you see clearly that if this would happen to one's own child it would be Lmaan Achai that would stand by, Not the Rabbis with some agenda.

    Oh and poor people also need to suffer because Lemaan Achai is standing up to sexual abuse in our community. Rav Malinowitz might learn alot of Torah but it takes way more than Torah learning to be a respected Rav. It takes facing a reality of what is happening in this community and really helping and supporting those in need.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Yes, there has been a lack of proportion in the attacks on David Morris. R' malinowitz did not need to make out of David's comments a reason for reacting militantly. The honor of Torah would have been been protected by disagreeing but not going farther than that.

    R' Malinowitz made a tactical mistake.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Da'as Torah vs Da'as TorahFebruary 21, 2010 4:36 PM

    Shira said,

    "Now there's a community "fight" and people have been encouraged to take sides - Daas Torah vs. Justice for Children. Did the two sides have to angle it this way, that we actually have to choose?"

    Shira in all respect...who says that daas Torah doesn't say justice?

    Many great men of the past and present have called for reporting to the authorities. It just seems that there is a selective daas Torah who feels differently.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Sound of Silence-

    still waiting for you to give permission for Rav Malinowitz to answer completely and fully...

    or you can rant in comments over the silence.

    ReplyDelete
  59. A Grieving ParentFebruary 21, 2010 4:44 PM

    Rav Malinowitz,

    I don't know who the sound of silence is but you know who I am.

    Go ahead..explain yourself to me. You know my email address and my number is listed.

    Do you want to embarrass my family further and put them through more hell? Is that what you're waiting for? For me to say who I am?

    If that is the case then you should do some serious soul searching here. You have had almost 2 years to explain yourself, contact my family or even just to leave a thoughtful email or message.

    No Rav Malinowitz I will not put my family on the mizbeach any more like I did when following your direction and going to the tznius police.

    To quote you:
    "Advice: Come clean, apologize (an apology will now probably be necessary) , retract, and a fresh page can start."

    ReplyDelete
  60. Why can't Jews fight without fighting?

    ReplyDelete
  61. Anon,

    When our rabbis and leaders set such a wonderful example we have no choice but to follow their lead.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Nu, that's why we don't need "achdus" events (though Ari Rosenstein deserves much praise for his intentions and efforts), we need "achdus" ACTIONS from the rabbis!

    Enough with hypocritical poses-let's see something real!

    ReplyDelete
  63. Rav Malinowitz you are lucky. You are an adult and you can defend yourself by attacking David Morris, but who was there to protect the children while they were being abused?

    Who really cares about the children? Little sweet children who we have been given as gifts by our creator. The same way we make sure they cross the streets with safety, we need to ensure their safety against predators. Yes frum predators. Lets face it. It has happened and it continues to happen. This is not about Rabbi's rulings and justice for our children. This is about TORAS EMES. VNISHMAREM ES NAFSHOSEICHEM. Does it not say this in Shema Yisroel. We spend years and years raising our children and trying to give them a true Torah lifestyle, we also need to make sure they have a healthy upbringing. We can't heal the predators, can we at least try to prevent the abuse in our town. So far we have encouraged the molesters. KEEP DOING WHAT YOU WANT - YOU WILL GET AWAY SCOTT FREE. The Rabbis will protect you. The community will protect you. Only the abused will be threatened and drained from the Hell the RABBIS HAVE SUBJECTED US TO. Predators are dangerous. They want to abuse our children and in Ramat Beit Shemesh Aleph they will, unless WE THE PEOPLE OF THE COMMUNITY STAND UP TO THIS AND PUT A STOP TO WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH OR WITHOUT THE RABBIS.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Sticks ans Stones May Break My Bones...February 21, 2010 5:33 PM

    Enough of the back and forth here!

    Those of you who really wish to support David Morris, Lema'an Achai and the protection of children should put their money where their mouth is!

    Give your tzedaka to them! Volunteer for them! Tell your friends in Chul to support them.

    When others come by for a donation say "I'm sorry, your organization doesn't have rabbonim speaking against them I must support Lema'an Achai.

    This more than words will bolster david, lema'an Achai and the amazing work they do for the poor (and to protect my kids).

    ReplyDelete
  65. I don't think that Rav Soloveichik has preached anything but peace among our communities. Why can't Rav Malinowitz make a step in the direction of engendering peace?

    ReplyDelete
  66. I thought that this was going to the only post today?

    ReplyDelete
  67. look outside. the day is over.

    ReplyDelete
  68. for truth and justice the day has just begun

    ReplyDelete
  69. Rafi,

    The day is over and the posts will most probably abate. However there will be one more voice and if we stop and concentrate we will hear it clearly. The Bas Kol that will say tonight:

    "Oy lelboba shel Torah"

    It is sad that Rav Malinowitz and his defenders here think that the clever 12 questions in concert with the ban on Lema'an Achai is a kavod for the rabbonim.

    No, his reaction to David's stance and quotes is the ultimate insult to Kavod HaTorah.

    His attempt to silence David would have been much more effective through pilpul chaverim and educating the masses about this most troubling issue.

    Instead he has taken the low road and abused the power of his office and position.

    Instead of raising his point he raised his his voice and thus lowered his stature as well as that of other rabbonim in the community.

    ReplyDelete
  70. I think its especially poignant when people argue which Rabbi they should idolize. Should they listen to mal or sol, is this rabbi a malach or is that rabbi the one who has special powers from god.

    Apparently ortho-judaism is idolatry.

    and idol worship is fine, so long as you dont need anything from your idol but their existence. So long as they are there, either alive or dead, and you can't submit to them, than you're covered.

    The problem with idolatry is when you need something from your stone image.

    My gods people: there are posters on this blog who claim to be parents of abused kids who are still complaining that their idols don't come over to show them support and comfort.

    If you want to submit to the will of others than accept their control and decisions. If you want to care for your own children than don't leave it up to your idols.

    If you left it up to your idol and they failed you and your children then you have the choice to recognize that your idols are false and try to do better yourself, or you can submit further or find a new idol.

    but it seems like morris gets alot of flak for pointing out that your idols don't have your children's best interests as a priority 24/7. And that's a shock? You're upset because he's the guy saying the emperor has no clothes and you might have to think for yourself and act in your own children's best interests. He should be crucified.
    After all, don't you know that the rabbis are endowed with "special" powers from god and all you have to do to tap into that is donate generously to their building fund.

    ReplyDelete
  71. The Cracks in Iconic JudaismFebruary 21, 2010 7:05 PM

    The Way,

    You're off on this one.

    I realize full well that rabbis aren't gods.

    My point is that they claim to love and care about every Jew, yadda, yadda. To have the best interests of the kids in mind.

    My point is..even if you think that my kid (and the others in his class) made this up and are certifiably nuts...at least call and ask how my crazy kid is doing (ie is he still halucinating, etc.)

    Even this superficial act is beyond them.

    Oh I know well that it is in the True G-d that I have to put my trust.

    His "agents" here on Earth are just here for the "photo op".

    ReplyDelete
  72. This is an open challange to Rabbi
    Malinowitz to participate in an open panel discussion on child molestation with members of the
    police department,social service
    department, other rabbis and
    let the public know how he feels
    child molestation cases should be
    handled. Let the other members of
    the panel given their feelings on
    what is the safest manner to handle
    this growing problem.

    I have a feeling the alleged expert
    on the subject would not be willing to participate.

    ReplyDelete
  73. The Way..

    WOW!

    Now print this and send it to the Beis Tefilla Board.

    The Emperor's New Clothes indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Behold and AdmireFebruary 21, 2010 7:44 PM

    HaRav Chayim, HaRav Chayim Solo, HaRav Chayim Soloveichik,

    The real hope of Ramat Beit Shemesh

    His spiritual leadership has enabled David Morris to do the great things that he does!

    ReplyDelete
  75. WAY - you've definitely got a way with words.. I love it!

    ReplyDelete
  76. Just to make the scenario a little clearer.

    A parent finds out from their child after various signs that have been proven over and over again to be truthful that their child was abused. The parents are completely shocked, beside themselves, feeling helpless, angry, emotionally drained, they can't eat or sleep, etc......

    They go to the local Rabbi thinking they might receive guidance, advice, sympathy, a caring and listening ear, and some help as how to handle the abuser.




    The Rabbis response:(these are true responses that were given to parents here in RBS.)



    Your child is making it all up.

    You abused your own child and are looking for someone to blame.

    There is no reason to believe you.
    You child is hallucinating.

    I hear, there is nothing to do about it. Etc.....

    It can't be - The abuser is so charismatic and well liked. There is no way this person could have committed such a crime. They have a family.

    I spoke to the Abuser who says they didn't do it.

    Shhhhh, keep it quiet - you don't want to ruin your name.


    It seems the Rabbis need video footage before they will believe that something like this has happened. Even then they would probably protect the abuser over tens of children that are at risk of being hurt.


    Is it time to make a change in RBS?

    As some of us were directed by experts in America - the only way to make a real change is to bring the problem of sexual abuse out into the public via newspapers etc.... Is it not true that the article in the Jerusalem Post caused the Rabbonim to open this topic?

    ReplyDelete
  77. Baruch Hashem it seems that a revolution has been sparked-for the sake of the children. May ALL rabbis get onboard!

    ReplyDelete
  78. after reading all the posts the most constructive was the person who suggessted an open panel discussion on the best way to protect our kids,
    this is what we should be concentrating upon, most of the posts are irrelevant or lashan hora. this is the only tachlis orientated response, we are living in an open society and this topic requires an open debatem where all sides can be heard,bringing in experts,
    perhaps something can be arranged and than RM can be invited amongst rabbonim and experts

    ReplyDelete
  79. Rafi G - he too supports going to the police but only after the accusation has been completely vetted and found out to be true.

    No. This is what the police are for, to investigate the crime and collect evidence and provide it to a state attorney for possible prosecution.

    The Rabbis CANNOT do this investigation properly because they don't have the power to force someone to come and discuss the matter as the police have.

    Mark

    ReplyDelete
  80. The Way - Apparently ortho-judaism is idolatry.

    A little extreme, but very insightful. The way Charedism is going, it is entirely possible that they become a new religion. Look at Chabad for example, many of their members are very close to practicing a new kind of religion centered around a [dead] person. The kind of change that last time ended up forming a religion that became massively popular, caused Jews lots of harm over about 2 millenia, and still remains very popular today.

    Mark

    ReplyDelete
  81. The poster's open offer of on-line answers is irrelevant. He will only answer if you give your name. This just demonstrates how little he knows about abuse and its victims. Does he really think that a parent will put the name of their abused child on a public forum? It just shows what a truly empty offer this is.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Anon,

    What makes this poster's demand for naming names is that he is a rav and talmid chochom.

    This lack of sensitivity is the same attitude that got us to this point to begin with.

    ReplyDelete
  83. But he himself does not give his name!

    ReplyDelete
  84. May your eyes behold your ravFebruary 21, 2010 10:05 PM

    I didn't see anything yet...did Rav Malinowitz (or his ghost writer) reply to the grieveing parent?

    It is amazing how silent it gets when he can't come up with an answer.

    ReplyDelete
  85. original question

    8)At that meeting , you suddenly turned to Rav Malinowitz and said "Yes, I am accusing YOU of covering up for child molestors, protecting them,and hampering investigation of them" (or words to that effect)
    True or False, David??(Think hard, because Rav Malinowitz spoke to Rabbi HG a few minutes after the meeting.)

    The above would indicate tha person
    sending the questions and using the
    worst kind of Lashon Hora against
    David was the person sitting across
    from him at the meeting he is talking about. Accussing David of
    being dishonest is the lowest of the low. I think we are seeing a
    person more in love with himself
    then the community.

    I again challange Malinowitz to take part in a panel discussion
    how accussed child molesters should
    be handled. I think the real experts will set things straight.
    The question is does he real want
    this happen.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Can anyone give me a link to a copy of the original JPost article?

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  87. In another community, when this matter was at the boiling point, and people were told 'this' and 'that' and people were pointing fingers and 'condemning' and others were 'pleading' = this entire episode was devastating and did create ALOT of lashon hara. But in the end the quiet and sensible approach was to go to the police because the abuser is in a category of "RODEF" (when victim is underage), and you must stop him quickly!

    People have a hard time facing reality and the mind goes thru stages of decisions before getting to the EMES: It's wrong, it's immoral, it's corrupt, it's against the morality of the Torah, it ruins lives, and there is NO CURE (professionals declared).

    Be brave, stand up for morality, protect the victim. The more people who behave this way, in time, will find it will be under control. But worrying about what 'this one' will say, or 'what the Rabbis will say' is not the way to go. No one is immune from 'vested interests'.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Someone who knows you better than you want anyone to know you.February 22, 2010 6:03 AM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  89. There's One (kehilla) Born Every MinuteFebruary 22, 2010 7:07 AM

    "P.S. If anyone has any story , or accusation, or complaint, against Rav Malinowitz's handling of any child-abuse case, please stop hiding behind a cloak of anonymity ; give your name, your story, and permission for Rav Malinowitz to answer completely and fully, withholding no information. It can be done through this blog."

    What a crock! He wants to further victimize families by having them go public with names and stories yet he hides himself in a "cloak of anomytity".

    And people actually follow this man?

    ReplyDelete
  90. Method to the madness?February 22, 2010 8:53 AM

    DM's position of going to the police to handle child abuse cases seems understandable.

    Has Rav Malinowitz ever spoken about, or does anyone know what the rational is behind keeping the police out of it? I mean, more than simply the meah shearim aspect of it, where the police are viewed as the enemy of the chareidim. Is there a halachic basis that he is relying on? Or what?

    ReplyDelete
  91. I have just waded through 91 comments. Luckily, not living in RBS, I do not know any of the sides involved here, but one thing I will tell you:

    If this was my kid r"l - I would go STRAIGHT to the police, and I would remove my child from the school if the Principal refused to dismiss the Rebbi.

    ReplyDelete
  92. I think that the one thing that
    the Rabbi from BT forgets that he
    should have learned from the experiences of the Catholic Church
    is when you try to cover-up child
    molestation it comes back and bites
    you. They like those who believe
    in hiding your dirty laundry eventually had to pay the price.
    I really don't understand how and
    why he gets involved in the overall affairs of a community he does not live full time

    ReplyDelete
  93. I really don't understand how and
    why he gets involved in the overall affairs of a community he does not live full time


    What connection does that have? If he's the Rav, and knows what's going on (which he obviously does) why the big deal about where he lives?

    ReplyDelete
  94. He's not trying to "cover up" molestation. He's trying to deal with it in the way that he feels is most effective. He might be mistaken, but don't distort what he's trying to do.

    ReplyDelete
  95. A) Do you REALLY think that the "Rabbis" - led by Rabbi Malinowitz - are out to screw the kids over?


    b) Do you really think that they want people to suffer?


    C) Do you really trust the police? Keep in mind, this is the Israeli police, not the NYPD. Very different. Very corrupt.


    D) Do you think that there are halachos of how and when to go to the police?


    E) Lets say the Rabbis / schools messed up by not letting this guy go. If there would be a protest from the parent body, do you really think that the school would stand up against 50 families threatening to leave? $ TALKS and students = money.


    F) Some of these posters come across as real RCM haters. Do these chevra still daven in BTYA? If yes, why? There are dozens of shuls in the area? Try one of the other shuls. Its a shame - and probably hurtful - that your kid has to put up seing his abuser.

    ReplyDelete
  96. A) Do you REALLY think that the "Rabbis" - led by Rabbi Malinowitz - are out to screw the kids over?

    No but they are out to "protect" the Charedi name. And yes, sometimes they do overlook the good of the children.


    b) Do you really think that they want people to suffer? No but it might be a "sin of omission" by not looking out enough for victims and their families.


    C) Do you really trust the police? Keep in mind, this is the Israeli police, not the NYPD. Very different. Very corrupt.
    And if someone is breaking into your house..would you call the police? Would you trust them? Would you call your rav instead?


    D) Do you think that there are halachos of how and when to go to the police? Perhaps. What if the intruder into your house is frum? Can you call the police? What if someone is attacking your relative..can you call the police then?


    E) Lets say the Rabbis / schools messed up by not letting this guy go. If there would be a protest from the parent body, do you really think that the school would stand up against 50 families threatening to leave? $ TALKS and students = money.
    Not always...and what if the rabbonim tell these parents that there isn't a danger and not to protest.


    F) Some of these posters come across as real RCM haters. Do these chevra still daven in BTYA? If yes, why? There are dozens of shuls in the area? Try one of the other shuls. Its a shame - and probably hurtful - that your kid has to put up seing his abuser.

    I don't equate someone who questions the morality of punishing the poor with a hater. And perhaps the person has a social network in the shul or it is more convenient. In any case if a dangererous person is in fact in the shul EVERYONE has the right to be warned and be cautious.

    ReplyDelete
  97. -- No but they are out to "protect" the Charedi name. And yes, sometimes they do overlook the good of the children.

    If you think this is true, you have a sad sense of who our leaders are. I personally think youre nuts for thinking this. But hey, thats my opinion and thats yours.


    -- No but it might be a "sin of omission" by not looking out enough for victims and their families.

    Here you use the word "maybe" - so its hard to argue with you. Maybe yes. Maybe no. But some people here are of the opinion that the Rabbis dont care about the suffering of the people. Absurd in my opinion.


    -- And if someone is breaking into your house..would you call the police? Would you trust them? Would you call your rav instead?

    I would call the police. But that is because its to stop a crime in motion. I dont think I would trust them, but it would be my best recourse. The difference being here a) its after the fact and there is time to follow a psak as to how to act and b) since its after the fact, the question remains how to deal with the community at large, and for this I do not trust the police.

    -- What if the intruder into your house is frum? Can you call the police? What if someone is attacking your relative..can you call the police then?

    If someone is breaking into your house or attacking a relative you can fight them yourself. You do not need the police. There are halachos on each and every aspect of our lives. Just because you grew up thinking that some things are out of the realm of halacha does not make it so.

    -- what if the rabbonim tell these parents that there isn't a danger and not to protest.

    Again, why are the Rabbis saying that? You will say because they dont want to tarnish the community name, and I say that they dont believe the full extent of the story.

    There is no halacha that you need to keep your kid in that school. Le'meichash mi'ba'i and take the kids out. That will show the school and hanhala that you seriously care about your children. It will be a financial matter and they will let him go.

    Where are all the parents in said school who did not take their child out of the school? who did not care that their child is under the supervision of this man? They dont seem to believe the stories - or the full extent of them - either, do they?

    -- I don't equate someone who questions the morality of punishing the poor with a hater. And perhaps the person has a social network in the shul or it is more convenient. In any case if a dangererous person is in fact in the shul EVERYONE has the right to be warned and be cautious.

    And finally, we have something to agree on. I also dont equate the two. SOME of the posters come across as haters. Some come across as people who want to see this guy removed from teaching children. A noble cause if you ask me (assuming he is guilty, or suspicious enough). But there is a difference in how much venom comes out of their mouths when they talk about RCM and the "rabbis."

    This convenience is quite expensive is you are a) allowing your child to come in close proximity to his abuser, or to someone else's abuser.

    Are there people in the shul who dont know about him? So tell them that there is a suspected abuser in the shul - yankel - and make sure you stay away from him. Then he can take the steps he needs to in order to ensure the safety of his chidlren.


    What I am getting at, again, is that most people dont believe the stories, and thats why they are not running from the school, running from the shul, running from the community. I dont know what happened. I was not there. We know the other side. We know the first side. Its important to realize that the "rabbis" are not out to screw anyone over. They are there to act according to halacha and lead accordingly.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anon 1:23,
    You claim "Keep in mind, this is the Israeli police, not the NYPD. Very different. Very corrupt."
    1. How are they corrupt in a way which is relevant to this case? Can you give examples of what you're talking about?
    2. Are the police really less equipped to handle such cases than the Charedi Askonocracy is?
    3. What are these halachos you are referring to? Even if one works with the assumtion that involving the Israeli justice apparatus is מסירה one can still be Moser אנשי אילמי .

    ReplyDelete
  99. Again, why are the Rabbis saying that? You will say because they dont want to tarnish the community name, and I say that they dont believe the full extent of the story.

    What if the "perp" was the janitor, shomer or some other worker.

    Do you honestly believe that the rabbonim would have the same level of doubt?

    And tell me please if Rav Malinowitz, et al don't trust the police why have they been begging them to come in and "take care of" the kids in the park?

    Can't they handle it themselves?

    ReplyDelete
  100. Again, why are the Rabbis saying that? You will say because they dont want to tarnish the community name, and I say that they dont believe the full extent of the story.

    What if the "perp" was the janitor, shomer or some other worker.

    Do you honestly believe that the rabbonim would have the same level of doubt?

    And tell me please if Rav Malinowitz, et al don't trust the police why have they been begging them to come in and "take care of" the kids in the park?

    Can't they handle it themselves?

    ReplyDelete
  101. And tell me please if Rav Malinowitz, et al don't trust the police why have they been begging them to come in and "take care of" the kids in the park?

    Can't they handle it themselves?


    Maybe you can see from that incident how helpful the police are...
    Never come, never show up, never do a thing for the safety of the people.....

    then some people ask "who said the police are corrupt ?" [/scratching head]

    ReplyDelete
  102. Car 54 Where are You?February 22, 2010 3:33 PM

    "Maybe you can see from that incident how helpful the police are...
    Never come, never show up, never do a thing for the safety of the people.....
    "

    Maybe they don't come because they know that the rabbonim "don't trust them" and "can do it better"..lol

    ReplyDelete
  103. Maybe they don't come because they know that the rabbonim "don't trust them" and "can do it better"..lol


    That's a nice game your playing...heads I win tails you lose...

    ReplyDelete
  104. Locid,

    the problem is that it isn't a game..lives and neshomos are at stake

    it isn't only here in RBSA..we have seen examples all over the world where the rabbinic cover up has caused deaths of bodies and neshamos

    ReplyDelete
  105. when comparing this to a break in in your apartment you said there is a difference because the break in is in progress and can be stopped. that is why not to call the rav but to call the police.

    So let's say you woke up the next mornign and found out your aopartment had been burglarized while you were asleep. Or if you were away for a few days and came home and found the place ransacked. Would you then not call the police but call the rav? What is he going to do? fingerprint the place and see if there is reason to call the police?

    I dont understand how you differentiated between the cases. Please clarify.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Rafi G - when comparing this to a break in in your apartment you said there is a difference because the break in is in progress and can be stopped. that is why not to call the rav but to call the police.

    What about when the abuse is "still in progress", and the Rabbanim allow the abuser to remain in a position of teaching/leading children?

    Mark

    ReplyDelete
  107. Can we please get 1 thing very clear!!!!!!!!!!!
    I spoke to RCM many times about this topic. He never said not to go to the police if your child was abused/molested!!!!!All he is talking about is SUSPECTED abuse,Do you call in the police or not ? and when? and at what point.For that you need a Rav who is a competent Halachic authourity.That's it!!!!!!!
    why is everybody getting all carried away about Rabbies????????
    Nobody is afraid of the police.!!!
    Nobody doesnt trust them!!!!!
    all they are worried about is a very public inquiry therby killing the family EVEN if he is found innocent in the end, which has happened many times
    Have a happy purim

    ReplyDelete
  108. "when comparing this to a break in in your apartment you said there is a difference because the break in is in progress and can be stopped. that is why not to call the rav but to call the police."


    The following is said tongue in cheek.


    If I came home and found my apartment broken into I would
    first call my Rav so he could
    determine if the thief was first
    of all frum and if so what shul he davened at. If he was not frum or a goy then the Rav of course would tell us to call the police. If he was frum and davened in the rav's shul we would have to admit our guily in allowing to break into our house
    by going away for Shabbos. If the
    thief did not admit to the theft
    the rav would find him another
    house to break into until all
    details were made available. In
    the mean time a fence would have
    to found so he could feed his family with proceeds of the property he stole from us. Of course the rav would insist he
    get an aliya next Shabbos.


    The above sound absurbed then
    so does some of the posts.

    As was suggested an open meeting
    with numerous experts in the field
    of child moestation be held so
    that how things should be handled
    be talked about.

    ReplyDelete
  109. "What is he going to do? fingerprint the place and see if there is reason to call the police?"

    Lets say you suspect someone, but youre not sure. Are you allowed to tell the police that you suspect a certain guy? Thats a halachic question and needs to posed to a Rov, doesnt it? If not, please cite a source and explain why its so simple.

    ReplyDelete
  110. "What is he going to do? fingerprint the place and see if there is reason to call the police?"

    Lets say you suspect someone, but youre not sure. Are you allowed to tell the police that you suspect a certain guy? Thats a halachic question and needs to posed to a Rov, doesnt it? If not, please cite a source and explain why its so simple.

    ReplyDelete
  111. "All he is talking about is SUSPECTED abuse,Do you call in the police or not ? and when? and at what point.For that you need a Rav who is a competent Halachic authourity.

    What are you trying to say if you
    don't have a video tape of it then
    it is only suspected. I believe that most parents know their
    children and when they show signs
    of change from the normal and
    relate what happened to them. It
    is time to go to the experts be it
    be the police or known experts
    in the field. Not someone who is
    going to worry more about if the
    perpetrator will loss his livelyhood.

    ReplyDelete
  112. thats not exactly how I envision your average house being broken into. Maybe in that case you are right, where you have a reason to suspect someone did it you would have to ask if you could suggest that name as a suspect. But you think you should not call the police anyway to come investigate, even without you supplying a name?

    Back to the case, the standard break in, at least around here, is a guy breaking in to steal money and silver, usually you have no idea who it was. It is not usually an inside job where you would have a suspect in mind, unless you saw someone scouting out your house.

    but, again, in a case where you have a suspect I can see the need to ask a shailoh if you are allowed to give a name, but that has nothign to do with calling the police to investigate a break in.

    And if you caught the thief, do you need to ask if you can call the police in order for them to come arrest him?

    ReplyDelete
  113. When it's not a shailoFebruary 22, 2010 9:03 PM

    "Lets say you suspect someone, but youre not sure. Are you allowed to tell the police that you suspect a certain guy? Thats a halachic question and needs to posed to a Rov, doesnt it? If not, please cite a source and explain why its so simple."

    I see smoke coming out of my neighbor's house - should I call the fire brigade (maybe there's no fire, and its just smoke)?

    I see a suspicious object by a bus stop - should I call the police? (It's probably someone's forgotten shopping)

    I see a guy lying on the ground screaming he's got chest pains - should I call an ambulance? (Maybe he's got indigestion).

    I suspect someone's abusing children - should I call the social services/police? (Maybe the guy will lose his job).

    In none of the above cases is it rational to call the Rabbi.

    Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand where rabbinical authority stops, and the forces of law and order take over.

    Rav Malinowitz doesn't understand the boundaries of his job description - and is endangering our neighborhood's children by this.

    ReplyDelete
  114. And now, as it's Purim...

    What's the difference between a Dati Leumi shul, and a Hareidi shul??!

    In the Dati Leumi shul, they give kovod to the child protectors, and put a cherem on the pedophiles.

    While in the Hareidi shul, they give kovod to the pedophiles, and put a cherem on the child protectors!

    (Sadly, its not a joke at all)

    ReplyDelete
  115. When a fellow BTYA congregant mentioned this scandal to me last night, I didn't think I'd waste so much time reading these blog posts. However, here I am again on Monday night reading more. As a KBY and Mir alumni, I've been around. I have relatives in Neve Daniel and others of the more Ultra-Orthodox bent. I see the value of both communities and my personal dream, one which I know is shared by many at BTYA, is to somehow bridge the gaps and create a more unified Am HaTorah.
    As such, it's extremely painful that people who no doubt live near me in RBS, spew such hatred and disgust for other good, sincere (and might I add, highly educated and intelligent) Jews. Take for example the posting entitled "RBS Joke Time". What is going on here!?
    There are different ways of serving H-shem. Dati, Torani, Chareidi, whatever. Using a disagreement on how to deal with a molestation issue to divide neighbors, friends, old classmates, etc.. is sick and hurtful. It is YOU who should be driven from the neighborhood. People who wish to create division. People who attempt to destroy places of Torah and Tefillah.

    May we be saved from our insanity.

    ReplyDelete
  116. To Thine Own Self Be TrueFebruary 22, 2010 11:45 PM

    Anon,

    And where is your righteous indignation for shuls that punish and wish to drive away tzedaka organizations because a board member has a different opinion regarding child abuse?

    Your own words come to mock you.

    The only real hate here is that of the "anon poster" who has nothing but vile disgust for david Morris and Lema'an Achai.

    It is to him that your words should be directed.

    ReplyDelete
  117. It seems to me that this post has run its course - probably a very long time ago. If people could have stayed respectful I would have no reason to close it, but it seems the longer it stays open, the less respectful people get of each other.

    I am closing it, meaning no new comments will be accepted.

    ReplyDelete

Related Posts

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...