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Jun 5, 2012
A Supermarket Is Not A Shul
Bet Shemesh has hit the news again. This time for what might be described as a cross-border incident.
Until now the various incidents of conflicts and strife have occurred in areas where the haredim live - either in their neighborhoods or right next to. When they make demands, one could say, even if one were to disagree, that they have a certain right to expect people from the outside entering their areas for shopping or whatever to respect the local sensitivities and be asked to dress appropriately. Even with disagreeing with the idea, there is at least a certain logic behind it.
However, when a supermarket opens up in a non-religious neighborhood, there is no logic in demanding that immodestly clad women must be completely covered up in order to enter.
Osher Ad, a supermarket known for their super-sized stores with cheap prices, just opened in Bet Shemesh in the neighborhood of Migdal HaMayim. Shoppers were shocked to see at the entrance a sign demanding they cover up before entering, along with a box of shawls or pieces of cloth with which to cover exposed shoulders or to drape around pants.
Rightfully so, they questioned why they must be told to dress up to go shopping in their own non-religious neighborhood. If their style of dress bothers anybody, those people should not be entering a non-religious neighborhood anyway. If I don't want to see women in bikinis I won't go to the beach. if I dont want to see women with exposed shoulders and slacks I won't go to do my shopping in a secular neighborhood. I don't have the right to go to the beach and demand that all the suntanners cover up so I can enjoy the beach as well.
After some complaining to the manager, and some articles in Ynet, GLZ, Dossim and Haaretz, the sign has already been removed.
We need to avoid these fights to start with. There is no reason these issues should come up and require a reaction.
A supermarket is not a shul. While women and men should be dressing modestly at all times, that is each persons own business, and those who don't don't and there is nothing I can do about it. A supermarket is not a shul. If another shopper's mode of dress bothers me so much, I should know not to go there. Those who want to take advantage of the cheaper prices will go shopping there regardless of who else is shopping there.
On the one hand the supermarket is not a shul, but on the other hand it is also not a beach - people are not walking around picking their tomatoes and cucumbers dressed in bikinis. people are dressed, usually fairly decently, just not adhering to what religious people consider the rules of tzniyus. Most people, especially when going into a secular neighborhood, will not be seriously bothered by how others are dressed. People who are will not go there to shop anyway.
The store's attempt to placate everybody, even without knowing about a specific problem, is insulting. The store's initial response was to say that they serve everybody equally, and the chain respects its customers and requests to prevent harming the sensitivities of this or that community..
That is a very nice sentiment, but when they are then asking that one group change their style of dress in order to respect the other group, they are harming the sensitivities of one over the other.
At the end of the day, I am not aware of any indication that this sign was demanded by the haredi community. As far as I can tell, the store is at fault for this snafu, making an assumption about what would be demanded of them, and it was not the haredi askanim actually demanding it. I would give them credit for not being involved in this issue. the situation has been so volatile that such an innocuous sign becomes a major issue.
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Until now the various incidents of conflicts and strife have occurred in areas where the haredim live - either in their neighborhoods or right next to. When they make demands, one could say, even if one were to disagree, that they have a certain right to expect people from the outside entering their areas for shopping or whatever to respect the local sensitivities and be asked to dress appropriately. Even with disagreeing with the idea, there is at least a certain logic behind it.
However, when a supermarket opens up in a non-religious neighborhood, there is no logic in demanding that immodestly clad women must be completely covered up in order to enter.
Osher Ad, a supermarket known for their super-sized stores with cheap prices, just opened in Bet Shemesh in the neighborhood of Migdal HaMayim. Shoppers were shocked to see at the entrance a sign demanding they cover up before entering, along with a box of shawls or pieces of cloth with which to cover exposed shoulders or to drape around pants.
Rightfully so, they questioned why they must be told to dress up to go shopping in their own non-religious neighborhood. If their style of dress bothers anybody, those people should not be entering a non-religious neighborhood anyway. If I don't want to see women in bikinis I won't go to the beach. if I dont want to see women with exposed shoulders and slacks I won't go to do my shopping in a secular neighborhood. I don't have the right to go to the beach and demand that all the suntanners cover up so I can enjoy the beach as well.
After some complaining to the manager, and some articles in Ynet, GLZ, Dossim and Haaretz, the sign has already been removed.
We need to avoid these fights to start with. There is no reason these issues should come up and require a reaction.
A supermarket is not a shul. While women and men should be dressing modestly at all times, that is each persons own business, and those who don't don't and there is nothing I can do about it. A supermarket is not a shul. If another shopper's mode of dress bothers me so much, I should know not to go there. Those who want to take advantage of the cheaper prices will go shopping there regardless of who else is shopping there.
On the one hand the supermarket is not a shul, but on the other hand it is also not a beach - people are not walking around picking their tomatoes and cucumbers dressed in bikinis. people are dressed, usually fairly decently, just not adhering to what religious people consider the rules of tzniyus. Most people, especially when going into a secular neighborhood, will not be seriously bothered by how others are dressed. People who are will not go there to shop anyway.
The store's attempt to placate everybody, even without knowing about a specific problem, is insulting. The store's initial response was to say that they serve everybody equally, and the chain respects its customers and requests to prevent harming the sensitivities of this or that community..
That is a very nice sentiment, but when they are then asking that one group change their style of dress in order to respect the other group, they are harming the sensitivities of one over the other.
At the end of the day, I am not aware of any indication that this sign was demanded by the haredi community. As far as I can tell, the store is at fault for this snafu, making an assumption about what would be demanded of them, and it was not the haredi askanim actually demanding it. I would give them credit for not being involved in this issue. the situation has been so volatile that such an innocuous sign becomes a major issue.
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Labels:
bet shemesh,
haredim,
shopping,
tznius
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This is capitalism. If they want the chareidi market, and there is no reason to believe that they cant get it, then they will be willing to *request* that everyone dresses modestly.
ReplyDeleteIn other news, exposed shoulders and low cut shirts for women is not really acceptable. Its not like uncovered hair, short sleeves, or a skirt without tights. There are cetain "norms" which are outside the realm of acceptable by halacha. The question is only if that bothers you enough to care or not.
its not acceptable and therefore what? you can tell everyone else how to dress wherever they go? we live i a situation where that is what happens - you insist on avoiding seeing it, dont go into a non-religious neighborhood.
ReplyDeletecapitalism? sure. and those who are on the opposite end have the same right to express their distaste at being told what to do and threaten the same that they will not shop where they are told how to dress.
Also, anon, unless you plan to get to this store blindfolded, there's no reason to expect that the mode of dress in the vicinity of the store would be any different.
ReplyDeleteIn other, other news what can and cannot be exposed is highly dependent on local dress. When others have all their own mitzvah ducks in line then... never mind, if they actually were observing all the mitzvot they would never think of insulting another person like this.
so i guess that anonymous had no problem with the chabadnik being kept out of the mall in ramat aviv? capitalism and all that.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe I am defending the chareidim on this, but anon 7:54 seems on target here. Let's not confuse public policy and business. Osher Ad is pinning their business plan on wooing the chareidi market. In order to do that they need to make the store hospitable to chareidim. Where is the crime?
ReplyDeletehttp://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2012/06/simchas-in-klal-yisroel-reporting.html
ReplyDeleteSlacks?
ReplyDeleteIt seems you are assuming that the intention here was to appease potential chareidi clients. I've been to this store and a significant percentage of the staff is clearly charedi. Perhaps the attempted "cover up" here was to keep the workers (and the charedi owners) comfortable in their own work environment. No one is forced to shop there either, so perhaps being sensitive to the owner/workers isn't so crazy.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't so simple as yoy make it seem. The store is trying to provide a public benefit of improved prices and an overall enhanced shopping experience and it's owned and run (at least in part) by chareidim who would want a comfortable work place by their standards. Otherwise, the ones who will lose will be the non-chareidim, as stores such as this will just build and provide their benefits within charedi areas.
That said, personally, I think it's overall a wrong idea for them to make this request, but I don't think it's so outlandish as you and others have made it seem.
This whole issue doesn't matter. If things continue as they are Migdal Hamayim will be Charedi within a few years anyway.
ReplyDeleteBet Shemesh in particular and Israel in general is quickly moving to a Charedi majority.
If the Charedim wield this much power (in the Knesset, etc) as a minority one can only imagine what will be when they are in fact the majority.