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Jul 16, 2012
Proposed Law: Keep Yeshivot Hesder Open
When the Tal Law was voided by the Supreme Court, the Haredim were not the only potential victims. Along with the Haredim benefiting from the "Toraso Umanuso" status was also the Dati Leumi students of Hesder Yeshivot. With the Tal Law no longer protecting them, their status was n danger also, and at the same risk of being "shut down" and drafted for three years of service (or per whatever terms would eventually be worked out).
Instead of letting the problem simmer, the Dati Leumi leaders right away went to work to influence those in power to separate their status from the Haredi community and make a separate law that would regulate the hesder Yeshivot to allow them to function as they have until now.
And they seem to have been successful.
Yesterday, a law was proposed, and passed its initial reading in the ministerial committee for drafting laws (it still has to pass the Knesset readings, but it has broad support so that should not be a problem), by which they no longer operate under the status of Toraso Umanuso, but will receive deferments for up to 60% of the students in every draft year up until the 6th year of availability.
The reason this is broadly supported, despite being seemingly in opposition to the technicality of drafting everyone equally, is because despite the delayed service, the percentage of combat soldiers and officers coming out of that community is very high.
The general consensus in the vote was that this is a technical problem that should be immediately resolved by separating the hesder yeshivot form the haredi situation, and should not be held "hostage" to the fight between the government and the haredi community. The Shas ministers, on the other hand, were the only ones to vote against it saying that when the law is under review and a replacement is being analyzed, now is not the time to split the situation and only resolve the problems of one of the groups to be affected.
(source: Srugim)
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Instead of letting the problem simmer, the Dati Leumi leaders right away went to work to influence those in power to separate their status from the Haredi community and make a separate law that would regulate the hesder Yeshivot to allow them to function as they have until now.
And they seem to have been successful.
Yesterday, a law was proposed, and passed its initial reading in the ministerial committee for drafting laws (it still has to pass the Knesset readings, but it has broad support so that should not be a problem), by which they no longer operate under the status of Toraso Umanuso, but will receive deferments for up to 60% of the students in every draft year up until the 6th year of availability.
The reason this is broadly supported, despite being seemingly in opposition to the technicality of drafting everyone equally, is because despite the delayed service, the percentage of combat soldiers and officers coming out of that community is very high.
The general consensus in the vote was that this is a technical problem that should be immediately resolved by separating the hesder yeshivot form the haredi situation, and should not be held "hostage" to the fight between the government and the haredi community. The Shas ministers, on the other hand, were the only ones to vote against it saying that when the law is under review and a replacement is being analyzed, now is not the time to split the situation and only resolve the problems of one of the groups to be affected.
(source: Srugim)
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Labels:
dati leumi,
IDF,
proposed law
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Why was this even necessary? The Tal Law has been around since about 1999, while the Hesder program goes back over 40 years. Was the Hesder arrangement cancelled when the Tal Law passed, and the Yeshivot reorganized on an administrative level to operate under the new law?
ReplyDeleteWhen I learned in a Hesder Yeshiva (before Tal), I remember that the students were not given leeway in certain areas, since they were technically in the army, even when they were in Yeshiva.
The issue is that the yeshiva students in hesder are using "torato umanuto" to defer their army service until draft which is only in the second year. The difference between them and the average Haredi student is that they are using this as a bureaucratic ploy to defer for a year and then they *do* sign up and serve. However, if the "torato umanuto" get-out clause is abolished they will need a new way of getting their first year in the yeshiva before draft.
ReplyDeleteYou misunderstood my question. The "torato emunato" exception exists in the Tal Law, which has been in effect since 1999 or so. However, for about 30 years prior to this, the Hesder program had been operating in full cooperation with the army. Why does there have to be a new law now that Tal is no longer going to be in effect? Why can't Hesder operate under the pre-Tal arrangement?
DeleteI dont know either. I dont remember. the same question can be asked about the haredi yeshivot arrangements prior to the Tal Law. on what basis were they able to defer the service? I imagine the answer to the two questions is the same
DeleteI'm not sure either, but I think there was an informal understanding - maybe it rose to the level of an administrative rule - to exempt anyone who claimed that "torato umanuto." If I'm remembering correctly, the Tal Law originated from a desire to make it possible for more haredim to join the workforce - before the Tal Law, someone exempt because of "torato umanuto" could not work, legally, until he passed army age. Also from a fear that the Supreme Court would rule the existing arrangement illegal. But of course, the main reason it passed was that Ehud Barak was desperately trying to keep his coalition afloat.
DeleteAnyway, my guess is that Rafi is correct, and that the hesders utilized the same rule or understanding.
I don't think the two are the same. The Hesder Yeshivot had a formal arrangement with the army, and their graduates could enter the workforce immediately after completion of their service (which usually included some time in Yeshiva after their stint in the army had finished). I also doubt that the student/soldiers in a Hesder program claim "torato emunato".
DeleteCaveat: I didn't serve in Hesder, and don't know all the details. But I think you guys don't know how it works.
DeleteThere are a number of 'arrangements' effecting army service. Atudah Akademait is one, for example. Hesder is another. Nahal was, in my time.
As far as I recall, Hesder students actually go first to Bakum to be inducted; but then return straight away to the yeshiva for their first year of learning. In other words, they are already legally soldiers from the very beginning. Or maybe they go to Bakum a little later on. In any case, their time in yeshiva is their 'assignment' as far as the IDF is concerned. The hesder/arrangement is broken up into phases; some in the yeshiva and some in the army.
We had a similar arrangement in the Nahal in the old days. In fact, some of the Hesdernikim did their basic training at our base, Mahane 80. In our case, the phases were divided between basic training, work on a developing kibbutz, security duty on the border (or time in airborne gdud 50), back to kibbutz. Usually, there was a pre-active service period on a mentoring kibbutz.
Students in Atudah, such as med students, were legally soldiers while in school at university. Summers they had their training and duty phases, until the time that they graduated and went to full-time service to complete their obligations.
In all these cases - Hesder, the old Nahal, Atudah - there are phases to a formal arrangement with the IDF. In all these cases, the participants are IDF soldiers during all the phases, no matter what their actual 'assignment' is at the time.
so then what is the need for this law?
DeletePre-Tall law, the Defense Minister had the presumed right to excuse or defer anyone from duty. This was based on the presumption that, social engineering aside, the army should ultimately have the right to decide whom it does not wish. The DM 'allowed' the existence of these arrangements. Following a high court decision, the army no longer had the presumed right to defer. Hence the need for a Tal law. The chareidi parties at the time wanted a law that simply gave the right explicitly to the DM.
DeleteThis is a great illustration of the difference between people who are looking for a win-win solution, and people who have no interest in doing so.
ReplyDeleteI don't really like this.
ReplyDeleteThere must be details here I'm not understanding, but laws should not be written that require a person to be wearing a certain type of clothing or self identifying with a specific group.
Are these rules written more broadly and you are just translating them into how people apply them?
You have correctly identified the inequality here. Theoretically a Haredi yeshiva could join the hesder and benefit from the provisions of this law, including official approval for only 18 months military service for their students. Non Haredi students can also claim torato umanuto and get a complete exemption. All hesder students do this temporarily in their first year to defer their draft. A certain (and not negligible) number of students in Zionist "kav" yeshivot do this for a long period of time in order to continue studying. However if you have no religious convictions, you have no way out of army service other than convincing the selectors that you are physically or mentally unfit and get a "profile 21" discharge.
DeleteIf you are female then you can do a hatzhara that your religious conviction precludes you from serving in the army. You may then volunteer for Sherut Leumi. Most girls of a Zionist persuasion who matzhira do this. However not all and it goes without saying that Haredi girls don't. And many do only one year of volunteering. Again if you are not religious there is no way out apart from a "profile 21".
But with regard to hesder vs haredi, the law is the same -- the difference is in how the communities are willing to apply it.
DeleteIn addition to the obvious and relevant benefit that Hesder students make a real and significant contribution in the army (many forgoing their special status to serve as officers or in special units); there is also a distinction in terms of the societal value of Hesder. Hesder yeshivas are often placed strategically to strengthen the security or social needs of a community. The yeshiva provides a source of strength and volunteerism for the surrounding area. Obvious examples are the positive effect of the yeshivot in Kiryat Shmonah or Sderot; but it is true in many other places as well. Students are encourage to get involved and do things like tutor underprivileged schoolkids. When Haredi yeshivot and kollelim show up in a community, they not only often upset the social balance of the neighborhood; they usually increase the local welfare rolls. Even most secular politicians can readily see the benefit of having Hesder in their towns.
ReplyDeleteSo, even though the social role of Hesder isn't the issue and technically not relevant; that will play in people's minds when they are writing laws and regulations. The Hesder institutions proved themselves to be interested in overall society's welfare; and will receive some consideration in return.