Oct 1, 2013
Destroying political signs of opposing parties
Here is my opinion on elections and supporting different candidates:
We live in a democracy and every person has the right to support whatever party or whatever candidate he or she prefers, for whatever reason. Even if I think the worst thing possible about any specific candidate, as long as he is running as a legal candidate or party, people can choose to support him/her/it. I might not agree with your reasons for who you choose to support, but I respect your right to support your preferred candidate.
And, I expect you to respect my right to support my preferred candidate, and to respect the next guys right to support his candidate, etc.
Why do I mention this?
A short while ago I saw someone rip down an election poster for a political party he does not support. This was a young yeshiva boy, looked to be about 15 or 16 years old, tearing down a poster of TOV.
I do not work for TOV. I have not yet decided if I will be voting for TOV. I have no formal connection to TOV (other than knowing somen of the people who run it). I am not a member of TOV. I am not a candidate for TOV. I have not even expressed support for TOV, though there are many things about TOV that I like. So, my connection to this vision before my eyes was not personal - I did not take it as a personal affront or damaging my party's property.
I called out to this young man to stop tearing up other peoples property.
He finished tearing it down and then responded to me that he is allowed to because Rav Shteinman said not to vote TOV and that they are against the gedolim.
I do not know if he actually said that or not, but I did not ask him for proof. I did ask him if he asked Rav Shteinman, or if Rav Shteinman said on his own, that one is allowed to destroy TOV property and signs or did he just say not to vote for them?
He said Rav Shteinman did not say anything about tearing up signs, but anyways they get money from the Iryah for this.
I said, I don't know if that is true or not, but so what? That fact, even if true, does not give you the right to destroy their property and their signs.
He then started arguing that because Rav Shteinman is against TOV, the TOV posters are actually an insult. He compared it to someone who has a crazy father, and someone goes and hangs up a sign across the street from your house against your father. Wouldn't you tear it up?
Sounds like a silly comparison to me, but I just asked if he asked a rav if he is allowed to destroy others signs and property. I said I am not from TOV, and these are not my signs, but he should be asking a rav before he takes the liberty to destroy property of other people.
What do you think? Is removing signs of competing political parties a legitimate action? Can I tear down signs of parties I do not support?
We live in a democracy and every person has the right to support whatever party or whatever candidate he or she prefers, for whatever reason. Even if I think the worst thing possible about any specific candidate, as long as he is running as a legal candidate or party, people can choose to support him/her/it. I might not agree with your reasons for who you choose to support, but I respect your right to support your preferred candidate.
And, I expect you to respect my right to support my preferred candidate, and to respect the next guys right to support his candidate, etc.
Why do I mention this?
A short while ago I saw someone rip down an election poster for a political party he does not support. This was a young yeshiva boy, looked to be about 15 or 16 years old, tearing down a poster of TOV.
I do not work for TOV. I have not yet decided if I will be voting for TOV. I have no formal connection to TOV (other than knowing somen of the people who run it). I am not a member of TOV. I am not a candidate for TOV. I have not even expressed support for TOV, though there are many things about TOV that I like. So, my connection to this vision before my eyes was not personal - I did not take it as a personal affront or damaging my party's property.
I called out to this young man to stop tearing up other peoples property.
He finished tearing it down and then responded to me that he is allowed to because Rav Shteinman said not to vote TOV and that they are against the gedolim.
I do not know if he actually said that or not, but I did not ask him for proof. I did ask him if he asked Rav Shteinman, or if Rav Shteinman said on his own, that one is allowed to destroy TOV property and signs or did he just say not to vote for them?
He said Rav Shteinman did not say anything about tearing up signs, but anyways they get money from the Iryah for this.
I said, I don't know if that is true or not, but so what? That fact, even if true, does not give you the right to destroy their property and their signs.
He then started arguing that because Rav Shteinman is against TOV, the TOV posters are actually an insult. He compared it to someone who has a crazy father, and someone goes and hangs up a sign across the street from your house against your father. Wouldn't you tear it up?
Sounds like a silly comparison to me, but I just asked if he asked a rav if he is allowed to destroy others signs and property. I said I am not from TOV, and these are not my signs, but he should be asking a rav before he takes the liberty to destroy property of other people.
What do you think? Is removing signs of competing political parties a legitimate action? Can I tear down signs of parties I do not support?
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I had a similar experience at the merkaz on Friday. I was sitting in the car and saw a man (in his 20s or 30s) rip down a sign - I think it was an Eli Cohen sign but I'm not even positive. I screamed out the window to ask him why he was doing that and to point out that it wasn't his. He stopped ripping so only got about 2/3 of the sign, turned around to look at me and threw it on the ground. Then he walked away.
ReplyDeleteCould someone tell me why Eli Cohen signs are illegal in traffic circles but Moshe Abutbol's are ok?
ReplyDeleteI saw a pakid iriyah ripping down Eli Cohen banners last week. When asked he said that is was "negged hachok" to be on the railings of traffic circles.
And yet his boss allows HIS own banners.
Rafi, I thought I saw your picture on a Tov Poster (...or perhaps it was an Eli Cohen poster)? Was I mistaken?
ReplyDeleteI was not on any TOV poster. I was on a flyer for Eli Cohen, but not a poster. It included my name, so if you saw it, you would have seen my name as well.
DeleteThis is an interesting question. In NY, it is illegal to hang posters on public property. I wonder if it is the same in EY. IN any event, I wonder if the freedom of expression for the signposter, also applies to one who is offended by such a sign, Should he not have the right to remove said offense?
ReplyDeleteWell Don't...if our mayor sets the example...his signs are everywhere. Even in the case that you are correct littering is an offense (even in bet Shemesh where it is condoned and even practiced by the city government)
ReplyDeletePULL OUT YOUR PHONE and start taking a picture while asking what he is doing and telling him the picture is going to the police. Watch how fast they stop.
ReplyDeleteOf course it is illegal to rip down signs depending on where they are put up. If they are hanging from private property, it is vandalism of private property.
ReplyDeleteMost municipalities set up temporary bulletin boards that the parties can rent space on. It is thuggery to rip down signs from these boards as well.
If a party has put up signs in other places, the opposing parties (if they know a simple thing about running the city, they - ) will know to take that party to court immediately to get them taken down and the party fined. In my city, the city hall put up banners in two places blessing the residents a shana tova in the mayor's name and the city council members (not named) and within only a few days, an opposing party took that to court and the mayor was fined 3000NIS and had to alter the signs. If Abutbol has signs set up on city property, the parties should sue. It is Abutbol's party's responsibility to make sure that they are in order and cannot claim that they had no knowledge of this.
i would like to further add that it is also boorish immature and downright rude to scream out to your neighbour IN PUBLIC as to the utter chutzpa to support a non chareidi candidate, as I proudly do. GO ELI COHEN....and you know who you are my very rude neighbour
ReplyDeletesigned
MrsRBS
i think that sticking up a poster in a public place and ripping it down are two sides of the same coin. there are place where people put up posters for non-political stuff. someone can put up a poster and an hour later someone else comes along and glues up another poster. is that wrong? i don't think so.
ReplyDeleteI dont know what proper "poster etiquette" is, but posting over a sign is different than tearing down a sign and different than defacing a sign. posting over a sign sounds fine to me, though if a sign looks new and fresh I think there should be some grace period for not posting over it. but still it is fine and not the same as tearing one down.
DeleteAlso, signs are torn down from public property as well.
at the end of the day, the message is no longer delivered, whether it is out of an act of destruction or cover up.
DeleteThe general bulletin boards around the city are city property. In some places, like Kfar Saba for instance, only city posters are allowed, in others, like in Ariel, personal notes are tolerated as well. In both cases, no political posters are tolerated except on the specific political bulletin boards.
DeleteIf the event described above was about political advertisements in illegal places, then Ben has a good point.
Selective tearing down of posters and banners? It smacks of what happens to Lema'an Achai banners and posters.
ReplyDeleteThis is why many RBSA residents are concerned about the future of our city. Acts of vandalism done "in the name of the Torah and Rabbonim" is a dangerous form of extremism. If left unchecked, it can follow into other forms of opposition including violence, chalila. We have seen this in other communities where one sect attacks others.
Please remember that this was a yeshiva bochur in RBSA, not a spiiter in Resido or a Burka lady in Bet.
If yeshiva bochurim are promoting this hateful behavior there is a serious issue here.
Personally, I am glad to see that Tov is taken as a real threat!
ReplyDeleteis netzach running in beit shemesh?
ReplyDelete