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May 11, 2014
frum kol isha before the Chief Rabbi
the Chief Rabbis of Israel are spending some time visiting communities in the USA.
Kikar has a video clip of a visit by Rav Yitzchak Yosef, the Rishon LeTzion, to the Jewish "Halabi" communities in New York. Invited to visit a community school, Rav Yosef was greeted with a performance by the students. Rav Yosef stood and watched the performance, despite the fact that it had both boys and girls singing.
the video is now on youtube:
thoughts:
1. it is not really anything new. We have seen him, and other chief rabbis and other important rabbis, sit through performances of women, generally at State ceremonies, without walking out.
2. Once again, the people who make a big deal out of such situations, as uncomfortable as they might be, are acting holier than the Pope - er, holier than the Chief Rabbi.
3. If a frum school would have girls perform before the chief rabbi without being sensitive to the person they are performing before, especially knowing it is a great rabbi, can we really get upset at the secular government or army, or private ceremonies, when they hire or present a female performer despite the religious people in the audience?
4. perhaps our common understanding of kol isha is not really correct or the halachic understanding of kol isha. perhaps we have gotten too extreme in considering every lilt in the voice of a female to be kol isha, and maybe that is not really the halachic case.
Kikar has a video clip of a visit by Rav Yitzchak Yosef, the Rishon LeTzion, to the Jewish "Halabi" communities in New York. Invited to visit a community school, Rav Yosef was greeted with a performance by the students. Rav Yosef stood and watched the performance, despite the fact that it had both boys and girls singing.
the video is now on youtube:
thoughts:
1. it is not really anything new. We have seen him, and other chief rabbis and other important rabbis, sit through performances of women, generally at State ceremonies, without walking out.
2. Once again, the people who make a big deal out of such situations, as uncomfortable as they might be, are acting holier than the Pope - er, holier than the Chief Rabbi.
3. If a frum school would have girls perform before the chief rabbi without being sensitive to the person they are performing before, especially knowing it is a great rabbi, can we really get upset at the secular government or army, or private ceremonies, when they hire or present a female performer despite the religious people in the audience?
4. perhaps our common understanding of kol isha is not really correct or the halachic understanding of kol isha. perhaps we have gotten too extreme in considering every lilt in the voice of a female to be kol isha, and maybe that is not really the halachic case.
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Labels:
Rav Yitzchak Yosef,
tznius,
women
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i agree with all four points. well put
ReplyDeleteRafi, your number 3 is of course partly answered by your number 4. What's more, Rav Yosef is the son of a hacham who famously admired and enjoyed the music of an Egyptian female vocalist (though I don't think in live performances). And here there are mixed voices and other mitigating factors, according to some poskim. BTW, who says they didn't take into account his sensitivities? Maybe they asked, and he agreed to this performance?
ReplyDeleteperhaps. but then:
Deletea. if they asked, maybe he already couldnt/wouldnt say no (i.e. just asking put him in the position)
b. if they asked and he said yes, that also shows that it isnt as bad as "we" make it out to be.
Perhaps the performers' being little girls makes a difference as well.
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe has a tshuva allowing fathers to attend school events with little girls singing as long as they are under 11 years old.
ReplyDeleteI doubt he was the father of any of the little girls there...
Deletelets also not forget all the other teachers/rebbes who were present and helped them prepare...
All the fathers listening to all the girls!
DeleteThe hetter is that none of the girls are ervos yet, so the issur doesn't apply.
Why does that make a difference
DeleteR moshe was based on the age of the girls the relationship was the scenario in which the psak came about. The relationship has no relevance to the psak
Also. Maybe it would be helpful to show us where kol baisha erva is not as we understand it. And if you do bring the sdei chemed please be kind and show us the context as well. It should be pointed out that although something is assur there are scenarios where the proper thing halachicly to do would be accomplished at the cost of transgressing a different Halacha
ReplyDeleteI never researched the halachos of kol isha, so I dont know. I do know that I have heard from others the the way we are machmir on kol isha today is not what it used to be and not every singing was considered kol isha, but only romantic type singing, love songs, etc. I dont know if that is true or not. Thats why i suggested that our understanding today is not really halachic , but didnt argue it definitively.
Deletefurthermore, knowing that many great people have listened to women singing (such as famously Rav Ovadia as was pointed out above), makes one wonder that perhaps basic singing is not considered assur via kol isha.
also, in many places (I dont want to say "all"), it was common for women to sing zemiros at the shabbos table, even with guests present, and it was not considered kol isha. nowadays this is not the norm. so there are already differences between what used to be considered kol isha and what is today considered kol isha, so maybe there are other differences as well.
What Rav Ovadia did many years ago is irrelevant to what he did in his final years and what he paskened to others.
ReplyDeleteKol Isha is not relevant for elementary school girls, especially when singing together, and especially along with boys. But whoever is more stringent will be blessed :-)
Rafi--in this case there 3 to 4 excellent heterim which would definitely not apply to singing by solely female vocalists at IDF events. One case almost has nothing to do with the other cases and definitely should not be seen as Rav Yitzchak Yosef endorsing anything other than this particular case
ReplyDeleteThe Siridei Aish stated (what almost everyone else states) that multiple girls/women singing together is not kol isha.
ReplyDelete