MK Eichler presents a new, rather extreme, interpretation of Minhag Yisrael, when he brings the quote from Hazal, that during a period of religious persecution and forced apostasy (Shmad) one must not change even a minor Minhag Yisrael (like the way Jews tie their shoes), to justify calling it Hillul HaShem and an attempt to destroy Judaism, to require Rabbis to perform for free the public service of marrying couples!
Since when has putting money into one's pocket, by taking advantage of a couple's desire to have a Jewish marraige ceremony, become a Minhag Yisrael (Jewish custom) which has to protected lest its cancellation cause the destruction of Judaism?
As MK Lipman pointed out, MK Eichler certainly sounds like he is saying that he is fighting tooth and nail to keep having Rabbis take money from the public for something which they should indeed be performing free, as a service of love for Judaism and their fellow man!
Does Lipman assume that rabbis are required to perform weddings each night for free, and ignore other obligations they might have. If city rabbis give shiurim, are they required to cancel the shiur to do the wedding? Are the rabbis otherwise paid overtime? Perhaps the government should pay them for each wedding instead of looking for envelopes after the ceremony. If the city rabbi is not available, who then is required to do the wedding for free? Lipman?
It's interesting that Eichler would mention that the Arabs bother the Jews on the Temple Mount, even though the Haredim, in general, do not support Jews being there in the first place.
the question is about city rabbis, who get a salary from the state. there are rules and regulations about this matter, there have been for years, and i don't understand what is the discussion. since doing weddings is part of the job, the rabbi is not allowed to take a tip any more than a city engineer who has certify a house for the tofes 4 is allowed to take money.
As far as Shiurim go: Many times I have heard that a Shiur was cancelled because the Rabbi had to perform a wedding (even though the Rabbi was being paid for it).
What difference should it make whether the Rabbi receives payment for the wedding? Rabbis have certain responsibilities and they should perform them as part of their salaried positions without asking for additional payment.
BTW, in some cases, I have also heard that a wedding was delayed because the Rabbi could come only after completing his Shiur!
If one Rabbi is not available to perform a couple's wedding, there certainly are other Rabbis who receive salaries to perform services for the public. Most cities have several neighborhood Rabbis, for instance.
However, the request/demand that the couple pay the Rabbi officiating at their wedding has always bothered me. Aren't we, the religious Jews (including the Rabbis), looking to make it easier, and more pleasant, for the general public to perform actions accoring to Torah? So, shouldn't the Rabbi (who is receiving a salary from the government to perform religious services for the public, anyway) want to provide a proper Jewish wedding to any interested couple without adding on anything (like payment) which might deter the couple, or make Judaism look crass?
Are all the rabbis in the city expected to do weddings for free? The fee should be part of the fee paid to the rabanut, and the rabanut should handle the scheduling and pay rabbis per service.
Ben, other civil servants are not required to work 25hrs a day like city rabbis. City engineers leave their 9-5 work at the office and definitely do not work on the weekends like city rabbis are expected. Engineer departments have very short and specific visiting hours times. Many municipalities do not have multiple paid rabbis. The neighbourhood rabbis are part timers. In the city I live in, there is no permanent city rabbi.
Ben, other civil servants are not required to work 25hrs a day like city rabbis.
i'd like to know how many city rabbis work 25 hours a day, not to mention the lower rung rabbis who work in the moatzot. on the other side of the coin - no civil servants have life time job guarantees like city rabbis. city rabbis (and even more so, the offices of the rabbinate) have set hours for kabbalat kahal.
Nu, it's an expression. Attached is the last published schedule of shiurim and activity that Chief Rabbi Lau was giving in Modiin as co city-rabbi before he was elected Chief Rabbi. This is IMO a standard we should strive for in city rabbi. https://www.facebook.com/rabbidlau/posts/516286968437890
רשימת השיעורים הקבועים של כבוד הרב:
מידי בקר 6:15 - שיעור הדף יומי, בית הכנסת תיתורא.
ראשון – 18:00, שיעור בסוגיה הנלמדת, ישיבת ההסדר 20:30 בבא בתרא, בית כנסת מרכז מודיעין 21:45 – תנ"ך, ספר מלכים, בית כנסת "היכל מיכאל נחום"
שני – 21:45 מלאכות שבת, בית המדרש רח' ראובן
שלישי – 19:00, מסכת כתובות, בית כנסת צעירי מודיעין 21:00, מסכת הוריות, בית כנסת תיתורא 22:30 – מסכת בבא מציעא, קהילת השמשוני
רביעי – 18:00 סוגיות במחשבת ישראל, מדרשה בבית הכנסת קיפודן 20:00 , מסכת סוטה בית הכנסת אודיה 21:00, מסכת שבועות, בית הכנסת אדיר במרום
חמישי - 8:00 ספר משלי, בית הכנסת מוריה 23:00 סוגיות בהלכה, בית הכנסת קהילת אלעד
שישי - 8:15 מסכת גטין, בית הכנסת תיתורא 9:15, מסכת שביעית, בית הכנסת תיתורא
שבת - ערבית ליל שבת, שחרית - כל תפילה בבית כנסת אחר, תלוי באירועי השבת. בקביעות - בין מנחה לערבית, סוגיות בהלכה מתוך הפרשה, בית הכנסת מרכז מודיעין
WADR to other city rabbis, they ain't rav lau. how many rabbis besides rav lau (and rav riskin) make it a point to pray at as many synagogues as possible on shabbat?
Like I said, that's the standard we should strive for. I don't expect our future rabbi to give 17 shiurim from the beginning (I think it's incredible (in the sense - unbelievable) that Rav Lau can give shiurim on nine different tractates on a weekly basis!), but my point was that city rabbi job is not 9-5 and includes working on weekends.
but my point was that city rabbi job is not 9-5 and includes working on weekends.
actually if these rabbis are so overworked, if the job is so demanding, this would be another reason to allow others to perform weddings, especially those who pass the relevant tests and are willing to do it for free. enough rabbanim willing to do weddings for free will make this whole discussion irrelevant.
That is where tzohar comes in. Theoretically, the weddings they perform are free for the couple and they only take the price of transportation, BUT, tzohar funds that through donations from people who accept their fundraising pitch (they call me at least twice a year, but I don't give anymore ever since they started advertising campaigns a couple of years ago).
I'm not saying the rabbis are overworked but to put their work in context in comparison with other civil servants who are not regularly required to extra. Let me add a certain example of ganenets/teachers. I noticed that in the public system, if there is some event in the evening, then they end school early to make up for those hours.
I wish I knew more about what is include din a city rabbi's official position, such as how often he has to perform weddings, etc. if it is part of his job description, as it seems to be, then none of these arguments make a difference. if he is being paid to perform weddings, he has to schedule that in. weddings dont just happen at the last minute (not usually, at least). He probably gets a calendar of where he needs to be during the coming month and at what times, and other events and shiurim need to be scheduled around that.
so if the regulations already prohibit (or severely limit) payments to city/state rabbis, what is eichler screaming about? does this proposed law turn the prohibition into a felony?
I think the new law is stopping the loopholes. they got around the law by asking for (or some might say demanding) tips... the new version wont allow that either. it is probably changing more than just dealing with tips, but thats at least a big part of it, and a good example of how they got around the existing law.
So if I live in a city like Ramat Gan, which has one city rabbi, and maybe a few other neighbourhood ones, who is going to officiate if those rabbis already did their once a week obligation? I hope the law takes that into consideration, but again, the schedule should go through the rabanut.
Eichler comes off looking bad, but this video was clearly edited, and did not show Eichler remarks which prompted Lipman's response. It's worth noting that the video was posted by Lipman. Too bad he couldn't be honest enough to show us what he was responding to, and instead mainly show us him yelling.
We see vary little of what Lipman is responding to. Since he (or someone who works for him) edited the video, he could make Eicher look as dumb as he wants, leaving out anything intelligent he said. In any event, we shouldn't have to assume anything - if Lipman is going to post anything at all, he should post all the relevant content.
It's disappointing to hear every and any issue remotely related to the Charedi population (are all city Rabbis charedi??) lumped together as "oppression" - and accusing fellow Jews, too. From a population that prides itself on its sharp reasoning skills, one would expect a better showing when discussing the reassessment of budgets, engineering social incentives, and other collective political issues.
eichler is in favor of jews praying on har habayit (1:50)?
ReplyDeleteMK Eichler presents a new, rather extreme, interpretation of Minhag Yisrael, when he brings the quote from Hazal, that during a period of religious persecution and forced apostasy (Shmad) one must not change even a minor Minhag Yisrael (like the way Jews tie their shoes), to justify calling it Hillul HaShem and an attempt to destroy Judaism, to require Rabbis to perform for free the public service of marrying couples!
ReplyDeleteSince when has putting money into one's pocket, by taking advantage of a couple's desire to have a Jewish marraige ceremony, become a Minhag Yisrael (Jewish custom) which has to protected lest its cancellation cause the destruction of Judaism?
As MK Lipman pointed out, MK Eichler certainly sounds like he is saying that he is fighting tooth and nail to keep having Rabbis take money from the public for something which they should indeed be performing free, as a service of love for Judaism and their fellow man!
Does Lipman assume that rabbis are required to perform weddings each night for free, and ignore other obligations they might have. If city rabbis give shiurim, are they required to cancel the shiur to do the wedding? Are the rabbis otherwise paid overtime? Perhaps the government should pay them for each wedding instead of looking for envelopes after the ceremony. If the city rabbi is not available, who then is required to do the wedding for free? Lipman?
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that Eichler would mention that the Arabs bother the Jews on the Temple Mount, even though the Haredim, in general, do not support Jews being there in the first place.
the question is about city rabbis, who get a salary from the state. there are rules and regulations about this matter, there have been for years, and i don't understand what is the discussion. since doing weddings is part of the job, the rabbi is not allowed to take a tip any more than a city engineer who has certify a house for the tofes 4 is allowed to take money.
DeleteAs far as Shiurim go: Many times I have heard that a Shiur was cancelled because the Rabbi had to perform a wedding (even though the Rabbi was being paid for it).
DeleteWhat difference should it make whether the Rabbi receives payment for the wedding? Rabbis have certain responsibilities and they should perform them as part of their salaried positions without asking for additional payment.
BTW, in some cases, I have also heard that a wedding was delayed because the Rabbi could come only after completing his Shiur!
If one Rabbi is not available to perform a couple's wedding, there certainly are other Rabbis who receive salaries to perform services for the public. Most cities have several neighborhood Rabbis, for instance.
However, the request/demand that the couple pay the Rabbi officiating at their wedding has always bothered me. Aren't we, the religious Jews (including the Rabbis), looking to make it easier, and more pleasant, for the general public to perform actions accoring to Torah?
So, shouldn't the Rabbi (who is receiving a salary from the government to perform religious services for the public, anyway) want to provide a proper Jewish wedding to any interested couple without adding on anything (like payment) which might deter the couple, or make Judaism look crass?
Are all the rabbis in the city expected to do weddings for free? The fee should be part of the fee paid to the rabanut, and the rabanut should handle the scheduling and pay rabbis per service.
DeleteBen, other civil servants are not required to work 25hrs a day like city rabbis. City engineers leave their 9-5 work at the office and definitely do not work on the weekends like city rabbis are expected. Engineer departments have very short and specific visiting hours times. Many municipalities do not have multiple paid rabbis. The neighbourhood rabbis are part timers. In the city I live in, there is no permanent city rabbi.
< In the city I live in, there is no permanent city rabbi. >
Deleteme neither. i have no idea what happens in this case.
the work is handed out to 2-3 others who've been approved.
DeleteBen, other civil servants are not required to work 25hrs a day like city rabbis.
Deletei'd like to know how many city rabbis work 25 hours a day, not to mention the lower rung rabbis who work in the moatzot. on the other side of the coin - no civil servants have life time job guarantees like city rabbis. city rabbis (and even more so, the offices of the rabbinate) have set hours for kabbalat kahal.
Nu, it's an expression. Attached is the last published schedule of shiurim and activity that Chief Rabbi Lau was giving in Modiin as co city-rabbi before he was elected Chief Rabbi. This is IMO a standard we should strive for in city rabbi.
Deletehttps://www.facebook.com/rabbidlau/posts/516286968437890
רשימת השיעורים הקבועים של כבוד הרב:
מידי בקר 6:15 - שיעור הדף יומי, בית הכנסת תיתורא.
ראשון –
18:00, שיעור בסוגיה הנלמדת, ישיבת ההסדר
20:30 בבא בתרא, בית כנסת מרכז מודיעין
21:45 – תנ"ך, ספר מלכים, בית כנסת "היכל מיכאל נחום"
שני –
21:45 מלאכות שבת, בית המדרש רח' ראובן
שלישי –
19:00, מסכת כתובות, בית כנסת צעירי מודיעין
21:00, מסכת הוריות, בית כנסת תיתורא
22:30 – מסכת בבא מציעא, קהילת השמשוני
רביעי –
18:00 סוגיות במחשבת ישראל, מדרשה בבית הכנסת קיפודן
20:00 , מסכת סוטה בית הכנסת אודיה
21:00, מסכת שבועות, בית הכנסת אדיר במרום
חמישי -
8:00 ספר משלי, בית הכנסת מוריה
23:00 סוגיות בהלכה, בית הכנסת קהילת אלעד
שישי -
8:15 מסכת גטין, בית הכנסת תיתורא
9:15, מסכת שביעית, בית הכנסת תיתורא
שבת -
ערבית ליל שבת, שחרית - כל תפילה בבית כנסת אחר, תלוי באירועי השבת.
בקביעות - בין מנחה לערבית, סוגיות בהלכה מתוך הפרשה, בית הכנסת מרכז מודיעין
WADR to other city rabbis, they ain't rav lau. how many rabbis besides rav lau (and rav riskin) make it a point to pray at as many synagogues as possible on shabbat?
DeleteLike I said, that's the standard we should strive for. I don't expect our future rabbi to give 17 shiurim from the beginning (I think it's incredible (in the sense - unbelievable) that Rav Lau can give shiurim on nine different tractates on a weekly basis!), but my point was that city rabbi job is not 9-5 and includes working on weekends.
Deletebut my point was that city rabbi job is not 9-5 and includes working on weekends.
Deleteactually if these rabbis are so overworked, if the job is so demanding, this would be another reason to allow others to perform weddings, especially those who pass the relevant tests and are willing to do it for free. enough rabbanim willing to do weddings for free will make this whole discussion irrelevant.
That is where tzohar comes in. Theoretically, the weddings they perform are free for the couple and they only take the price of transportation, BUT, tzohar funds that through donations from people who accept their fundraising pitch (they call me at least twice a year, but I don't give anymore ever since they started advertising campaigns a couple of years ago).
DeleteI'm not saying the rabbis are overworked but to put their work in context in comparison with other civil servants who are not regularly required to extra. Let me add a certain example of ganenets/teachers. I noticed that in the public system, if there is some event in the evening, then they end school early to make up for those hours.
I wish I knew more about what is include din a city rabbi's official position, such as how often he has to perform weddings, etc. if it is part of his job description, as it seems to be, then none of these arguments make a difference. if he is being paid to perform weddings, he has to schedule that in. weddings dont just happen at the last minute (not usually, at least). He probably gets a calendar of where he needs to be during the coming month and at what times, and other events and shiurim need to be scheduled around that.
ReplyDeletei found this document:
Deletehttp://bit.ly/1i5CPer
see the first chapter as to what a rav is allowed to receive.
interesting. thanks. I found the third section more interesting - how frequently he can and cannot officiate at weddings..
Deleteso if the regulations already prohibit (or severely limit) payments to city/state rabbis, what is eichler screaming about? does this proposed law turn the prohibition into a felony?
DeleteI think the new law is stopping the loopholes. they got around the law by asking for (or some might say demanding) tips... the new version wont allow that either. it is probably changing more than just dealing with tips, but thats at least a big part of it, and a good example of how they got around the existing law.
DeleteSo if I live in a city like Ramat Gan, which has one city rabbi, and maybe a few other neighbourhood ones, who is going to officiate if those rabbis already did their once a week obligation? I hope the law takes that into consideration, but again, the schedule should go through the rabanut.
DeleteEichler comes off looking bad, but this video was clearly edited, and did not show Eichler remarks which prompted Lipman's response. It's worth noting that the video was posted by Lipman. Too bad he couldn't be honest enough to show us what he was responding to, and instead mainly show us him yelling.
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you so certain that we aren't seeing Eichler's comments to which Lipman is responding?
DeleteIt certainly appears to me that Lipman's responses fit right in with what Eichler is saying each time Lipman responds.
Catriel Lev, Ramat Bet Shemesh Alef
We see vary little of what Lipman is responding to. Since he (or someone who works for him) edited the video, he could make Eicher look as dumb as he wants, leaving out anything intelligent he said. In any event, we shouldn't have to assume anything - if Lipman is going to post anything at all, he should post all the relevant content.
Deletehe couldnt make eichler look dumber than he really is -surely?
DeleteIt's disappointing to hear every and any issue remotely related to the Charedi population (are all city Rabbis charedi??) lumped together as "oppression" - and accusing fellow Jews, too. From a population that prides itself on its sharp reasoning skills, one would expect a better showing when discussing the reassessment of budgets, engineering social incentives, and other collective political issues.
ReplyDelete