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Feb 1, 2010
Stepping towards mehadrin bus lines
While this is not yet a final legal decision, it could have a lot of weight in influencing the decision that should be forthcoming in a month or so.
Minister of Transportation Yaakov Katz announced that his position is that Israel will allow mehadrin bus lines to continue to function, but with no ability to enforce. It would have to be completely voluntary. They should be able to hang signs explaining the mehadrin aspect of the bus, but if a rider would choose to not listen, they would have to live with it. And while it could be accepted unofficially, it cannot be officially mandated.
The courts might accept this sort of compromise position, but it is not definite. While such a compromise might be acceptable to the government, the courts might still say they cannot allow an illegal policy on public bus lines. It is clearly illegal, even according to the government, as they said they cannot mandate officially.
Another month or so and we should have the final decision by the courts.
A group of chilonim are upset at Minister Katz. They say he is a traitor to the secular cause, he has sold them out to pander to a minority of haredim, etc. Katz has no obligation to support a secular viewpoint in every decision and I don't believe that is a factor here. I am not in favor of mehadrin buses, but that does not obligate Katz one way or the other. As long as alternatives are available for those who do not want the mehadrin lines, such a compromise can be acceptable for those who do want it.
The real problem is the issue of enforcement. Katz said there is no way mehadrin guidelines can be enforced. If a woman sits in front or a man sits in back, the other passengers have to sit quietly and not make the rider move. We all know that is unlikely to happen. there are hotheads and generally nobody puts them in their place. So even if most of the time people might be akin to ignoring the occasional transgression, there will be instances where some try to force it on others.
Katz should say that if some try to force it violently on others, the whole arrangement will be canceled and they will lose his support.
Minister of Transportation Yaakov Katz announced that his position is that Israel will allow mehadrin bus lines to continue to function, but with no ability to enforce. It would have to be completely voluntary. They should be able to hang signs explaining the mehadrin aspect of the bus, but if a rider would choose to not listen, they would have to live with it. And while it could be accepted unofficially, it cannot be officially mandated.
The courts might accept this sort of compromise position, but it is not definite. While such a compromise might be acceptable to the government, the courts might still say they cannot allow an illegal policy on public bus lines. It is clearly illegal, even according to the government, as they said they cannot mandate officially.
Another month or so and we should have the final decision by the courts.
A group of chilonim are upset at Minister Katz. They say he is a traitor to the secular cause, he has sold them out to pander to a minority of haredim, etc. Katz has no obligation to support a secular viewpoint in every decision and I don't believe that is a factor here. I am not in favor of mehadrin buses, but that does not obligate Katz one way or the other. As long as alternatives are available for those who do not want the mehadrin lines, such a compromise can be acceptable for those who do want it.
The real problem is the issue of enforcement. Katz said there is no way mehadrin guidelines can be enforced. If a woman sits in front or a man sits in back, the other passengers have to sit quietly and not make the rider move. We all know that is unlikely to happen. there are hotheads and generally nobody puts them in their place. So even if most of the time people might be akin to ignoring the occasional transgression, there will be instances where some try to force it on others.
Katz should say that if some try to force it violently on others, the whole arrangement will be canceled and they will lose his support.
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"They say he is a traitor to the secular cause..."
ReplyDeleteEven to be a traitor requires more brain cells than Mr Katz ever had. Nope, he is just an ijit.
(Rafi not G)
ReplyDeleteHe is not a traitor to the secular cause but a traitor to the religious as well by giving in the tznius bullies.
It is a ludicrous either to believe that this arrangement could work or that it will be discontinued if there are violent incidents with people trying to enforce separate seating.
The "hotheads" will rightly see this as the government giving in to them and force compliance by fear. Nothing will change except that the government will be able to wash their hands of the whole affair.
The decision is a non-decision. He is saying that people have the right to request that others sit in certain places (people always have had the right to ask), and the others have the right to say no (they also have always had that right).
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why chilonim are getting upset. It seems like a bigger loss to chareidim, inasmuch they will not be getting what they want - namely the right to enforce separation on busses.
yoni - the haredim consider it a victory. The reason is because really, and they know it, the request should have been outright rejected. It is illegal, it is demeaning. No enlightened democracy can officially sanction such an arrangement.
ReplyDeleteYet the minister did not reject it but said they have unofficially allow it to continue. They didnt get all they want, but they got more than they should have.
snoopy - why do you say he is an ijit (aside from this decision)? I am not aware of Katz being particularly anything. He has been kind of bland overall.
Rafi - that is is whay I said he should have included a warning that while they can allow it to continue unofficially, if there is violence they will have the right to remove any sanction given and make it illegal.
Katz should say that if some try to force it violently on others, the whole arrangement will be canceled and they will lose his support.
ReplyDeleteRafi you are so right and it would be a kiddush Hashem if that sentiment gets to the right place and is actually implemented.
Rafi G.,
ReplyDeleteThey can consider it a victory all they want, but the fact is that they got nothing. They were always allowed to ask. In fact, if Katz had said they can't even ask, it would have been a serious violation of their free speech.
A parallel case would be if someone is sitting on a park bench, and someone sits down next to him and lights a cigarette (which is legal), the first guy can ask him to put it out or move, and he's not breaking any law, even though he can't force the other guy to agree. Same thing on the bus. You can ask people to move (people do it all the time when they want to sit near travelling companions, or on a train if they want to have a minyan in the last car), but noone can be forced to listen.
I am still not clear why just letting those who want it set up their own bus line to be run according to their preference and let the free market take care of the problem is not an acceptable solution. Seemed like those who wanted it were willing to try that, even had it running for free for awhile but apparently it was stepping on Egged's toes and was for some reason illegal if I understood the news accounts correctly.
ReplyDeleteyoni- I hear your point, but this is really more than that. H ei si saying it will be unofficially a mehadrin line. There is a certain amount of recognition. They can post signs with the rules. etc.
ReplyDeleteyehudit - because it is not a free market. Only one line is allowed to operate. Why this is so I dont know. It might be historical from when Egged had a legal monopoly. Now at least other companies can (and do) submit bids in tenders for bus routes. So it is not purely a monopoly anymore, but still only one bus company can operate any specific line...perhaps this is a step towards change, and just like in rceent years other bus companies were allowed to bid on lines, maybe in the future it will become more free of a market.
In the meantime it is also public buses, not private. On public bus lines in a democracy there is no way an enlightened country can allow segregation. Personally I am in favor of it for a line on an internal community, when it is all haredi and they want it. I have no problem with egged providing that for them. As long as there is also an alternative non-mehadrin line for those who dont want it.
I have no problem with egged providing [a real mehadrin line] for them. As long as there is also an alternative non-mehadrin line for those who dont want it.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with it in reality is there is often not enough ridership to support both. So you get the mehadrin run at 9:00 & 9:40 and the non-mehadrin at 9:20 & 10:00 ....
(not G)
ReplyDeleteOn patrol with Aceh's Sharia police.
This sounds too much like a place a know....