"The land is not hefker. You cannot just go take land that is not yours and expect to get away from it."

In this case Rafi you are incorrect - that particular land is not under the Defense Minister's approval/disapproval to build (unlike most of the territories where even with a permit his signature is still required) - it has been acknowledged that it was legally acquired in a permanent purchase from Arab ownership.

then go to court (I dont know if what you are saying is true or not, but even on private land you need building permits to build). the issue isnt specifically chavat gilad, though that is where it played out this time (again, for like the 100th time)

Was this a controversial post designed primarily to get comments?

it is clearly controversial. It was not designed specifically to generate comments, but I expect it will.

Excellent post, Rafi.

I agree with everything you said, and I believe that you put it very properly, fairly and clearly.

Also, as you pointed out in a comment, people need permits to construct buildings (or to add onto existing buildings) anywhere in Israel. So there is no excuse for unlawful activities in order to get more buildings built in Yehudah VeShomron (the West Bank).

I very strongly feel that the government should continue building in Yehudah VeShomron, but as you also pointed out, if we disagree with the way the government is implementing its policies, we must "use the political process to change the law, to change the government, to change the rules of engagement, but there has to be a rule of law".

I too agree with you Rafi.

Religious fanaticism, from wherever it comes, is very detrimental to the fabric of society.

Rafi - You have missed the point on many levels.

First of all, you are factually incorrect: "that does not give these kids the right to go build buildings all over, wherever they want, without permits, on land that they do not own."

Chavat Gilad is privately owned Jewish land (owned by Moshe Zar).

Arabs routinely build everywhere and the selective enforcement of knocking over Jewish homes by the government screams of inequality and hypocrisy.

Don't misunderstand me; I am against rock throwing against the police.

The official police statement is that the police opened fire (including shooting people in the back) is because "Aharonovitch stated that "during the operation the forces were met with violent resistance that included curses, threats and stone hurling." Curses and Threats don't hurt policemen, and its illegal for the police to shoot people in the back after a rock has been thrown. (And for the record, we've seen no evidence of rock throwing, only the videos of police brutality).

Regardless, had the Israeli police shot 15 Arabs in a protest, there would already have been a UN condemnation.

In a violent Leftist and Arab demonstration TODAY in Yaffo, 20 Leftists were arrested for throwing rocks at policemen and one policeman was injured and hospitalized. Not one leftist or Arab was shot.

Its is exactly THIS injustice that people are demonstrating about. Police violence against settlers, in order to make a point. Shooting settlers because they were cursed and shouted at. That is unacceptable and the government must be made aware that this behavior cannot be tolerated, period.

This police behavior is far worse than a building without a permit.

Maybe you should have focused your post post on "Stopping The Anarchy, Establishing The Rule Of Law FOR ALL" instead of focusing on the selective enforcement of the law.

You wrote, "Society needs the rule of law" -- in Israel, the rule does not equally apply to Jews, Settlers and Arabs. Since this is the case, people will demonstrate and even stop traffic -- its their democratic right.

Respectfully Yours,

Jameel

Well said Jameel!

I garee with you that the law is being selectively applied, and it should be enforced on the Arabs as well.

Nothing you said justifies what is going on. It just blames the police and government for their part in dealing unfairly, and perhaps excessively with the people. I agree with you on that, that the police need to use restraint, the police should be investigated, the police and government should enforce more in the arab sector, etc. The government should be more honest with those that elect it, and stay true to the people. All that is true.

Rafi,

Despite what you wrote, that you agree with Jameel, you chose to write a post condemning the victims of selective law enforcement.

I wrote in the comment that despite all that it does not justify what these [mostly] kids do.

The fact that the police are wrong, and that the government is not dealing fairly, does not justify the people rioting. You want to build illegally, go ahead. Just be aware that the risk is that the government will come in and knock down your building.

why is it that some people (aka Jameel and others like him) are quick to condemn charedim when they protest and throw rocks, when though they do so for ideological reasons, yet when the dati leumi protest and riot it is ok and justified. Rafi is right to condemn them. It is not just charedi protesters who deserve to be condemned. The rule of law should apply to everyone.

"The fact that the police are wrong, and that the government is not dealing fairly, does not justify the people rioting."

There is no evidence that the "settlers" were rioting:
Public Security Minister Yitzchak Aharonovitch on Wednesday told the Knesset that police were justified in shooting plastic bullets during the Gilad Farm (Chavat Gilad) demolitions Tuesday, but neither he nor the police offered any photo evidence that the residents attacked police.
The veracity of the police was immediately disproven several hours after the pre-dawn raid on Chavat Gilad, where 15 people were wounded by what were at first thought to have been rubber bullets.

The police said on public radio that the police fired nothing other than paintball guns, but later in the day they admitted that plastic bullets were fired. Mainstream media in Israel have virtually accepted police claims without question and have not commented about the lack of evidence of violence on the part of residents at Chavat Gilad.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak justified the shooting, charging that Chavat Gilad residents attacked law enforcement with officers with massive stone throwing.

However, one of the residents at the demolitions said he saw police with several cameras during the clash, and no photographs have been produced showing rock throwing. The victims of the police violence said no rocks were thrown and that the police shot at random without any provocation.

"There was no danger to the police, and I am stating as a fact that the shooting was intended to punish people, according to a decision by the Defense Minister," Ehud Barak, said National Union Knesset Member Uri Ariel at a press conference. . .

Rafi: Your wrote "All that is true."

That is EXACTLY why people are protesting!!!

To "Stoned in Jerusalem" - I have publicly said many times, and will say it again, Stone Throwing, is WRONG -- be it by Lefists, Arabs, Chareidim, Settlers or anyone.

In this case, I don't believe that there was in fact, rock throwing. With all the video of the event, the only thing I've seen is police brutality.

If the police are so justified, where is their video of the alleged rock hurling, which required shooting at settlers? (Something they have never done towards Chareidim, ever. And they didn't do that today when Arabs and Leftists in Yaffo rioted against the police, throwing rocks at them, and wounding a policeman! No policeman dared shoot at them!)

I think they have used such bullets against the leftist and arab protesters in Bilin on Fridays when it has gotten out of hand

Bilin: On Fridays, the Bilin protesters initiate the violence, by attacking the fence and throwing rocks at the IDF.

In this case, the police showed up, threw people out of their homes, and destroyed them...the people shouted at the police and cursed them.

And by the way, when the police destroyed these homes and shot at the settlers, they were not wearing their name tags, as required by law.

The law is only applicable when it comes to knocking down homes of Jews...and preventing Jews from praying on Har HaBayit (no freedom of religion for YOU!)

Rafi - with all respect you are missing the point.

You argue that the kids are breaking the law, and this is unacceptable.

Of course, all law abiding folks would follow that argument.

However, the kids who build the "outposts" and who participate in the demonstrations, are fully aware that these are illegal acts, and of the consequences to their actions.

They know the buildings will likely be knocked down, and that they will likely be arrested.

They do not argue that their buildings are legal, nor that their protests are with the required permits, etc.

Their protest is against the policies of the current (and previous) Government of Israel, specifically regarding building regulations and policies in Judea and Samaria.

Sure, the Government has translated their policy into law, and it is now protected by the wider system of laws. That's what Governments do.

But the protests are solely political by nature - and they are therefore also against those (political) laws!

You'll recall that Mahatma Gandhi deliberately flouted British laws in India, and willingly went to jail for it. Because THAT was the point!!

Okay, everybody; let's not be naive or disingenuous!

While the Police or Army may be directed by ministers who have an agenda against settlements (though, for the most part, these days it just seems that our government has been trying to get out of its situation "between a rock and a hard place" by demonstrating that, even though most of its members want to continue building, they will enforce whatever ban on building they agreed to); many of these "demonstrators for building in Eretz Yisrael" also have an agenda of "violence is permitted against anyone who stops me from building in Israel"!

I have lived on several occasions in Yishuvim where many of these types of demonstrators lived, and they would freely express their ideas that no government is legitimate except one which approves what they demand. This is NOT an acceptable ideology for anyone who wants to further the progress of ALL of Am Yisrael.

To further the progress of all of Am Yisrael, we must build a consensus for developing Yehudah VeShomron among all of the people, and spread the message especially in Tel-Aviv and Haifa and other places relatively distant from the West Bank. By building a structure in a place at which there is no permit to build, such demonstrators are mostly flaunting every one else's opinion. Even though I strongly favor building for ALL Jews in ALL of Eretz Yisrael, I can see that the attitude of "I will build and then do my best to keep the elected government of Israel from removing my structure" defeats the purpose of building a consensus among ALL Jews in Israel.

There are good explanations of our right to build and the necessity to build; but refusing to argue and just saying that since I am right I can flaunt the law, also justifies your opponents (who feel that your building is destroying Israel's chance for a peaceful existence and possibly threatening the existence of our state) performing illegal acts to destroy the structures which you build. The philosophy engendered by such "attacks and counter-attacks" leads to anarchy, as Rafi G. has pointed out.

As Rafi G. stated, in a comment, if you feel that the government/Police/Army are behaving illegally/immorally in their actions toward you then take them to court. We cannot justify ourselves as being above the law because "the court system is anyway biased against us to begin with"! First of all that statement is not actually true, even though there are some biases; since, on the whole Israeli courts have shown that they are trying to protect justice, but they must also protect the government's responsibility to formulate foreign (and internal) policy. Additionally, there is excellent reasoning in our favor; let's use it in the courts and in the public debate to get the entire governmental bureaucracy to change its actions!

No one can establish his own private foreign policy and then expect the state to follow wherever he wants to go! That would lead to anarchy.

(Continued in Next Comment)

Continued from Previous Comment:


Let me state again what Rafi G. pointed out: If you have proof that the governmental agencies have behaved wrongly and/or violently with no cause, then take them to court. Any unnecessary violent actions should be punished and halted. However, this applies to our side as well. Even though we are absolutely in the right (at least as I see it) in demanding increased building for Jews and halting illegal building by Arabs, this does NOT make our government into an illegal body which is not allowed to govern!

We should be demanding application of equal legal principles to ALL, not saying (as do many I have heard), "Since the government is not halting illegal Arab building, then we are allowed to build against the rule of law also".

Additionally, there are quite a few people on our side of this argument who DO exercise violence as part of their participation in demonstrations, and that must NOT be justified by us or our leaders. If in any specific instance (such as the latest actions at Chavat Gilead), the Police, etc., used brutality they should be brought to task, and the violators should be punished; legal action (along with continuing political action) is the way to achieve this goal.

As Rafi G. pointed out, even on private land you need permits to build, so even if Chavat Gilead is totally private land, one cannot build whatever he wants without a permit.

We must also remember that POLITICAL ACTION means working to convince politicians and the public that our agenda should be adopted as the government's policy. It does not mean hallucinatory types of demonstrations in some place out in the field. The aim of political action is to bring the rest of Am Yisrael closer to what we perceive as the truth, not to tell them, "Since I have decided that you are wrong, your opinion doesn't count".

We can pretty easily destroy ourselves (and our state) by ignoring the public consensus, and leading to anarchic situations where "Ish HaYashar B'Einav..."; but we can only succeed in producing progress by unifying the Jewish people around our program of action!

Another point:

Truly non-violent protesters allow themselves to be taken to jail, simply "going limp" and NOT resisting arrest by pulling against the Police who come to arrest them.

Some of our protesters, usually because they claim that the Police have no legitimacy for arresting them, use all sorts of actions to make it very difficult for the Police to arrest them. If they use violent means to resist arrest, it is certainly wrong (an a Chillul HaShem); but even using not-truly-violent means to make it almost impossible for the Police officer to perform his duty easily provokes a push-and-shove match with the Police which brings violence for which each side can blame the other.

That is NOT the way truly non-violent protesters behave!

Catriel: Let's please not be naive.

Jews visiting Har HaBayit is an excellent example. The Supreme Court has repeated over and over again that Jews are allowed to visit Har HaBayit.

Yet time and time again the police illegally prevent people from doing so.

Legally, Jews should be allowed to daven on Har HaBayit.

Yet the police refuses to allow it, and violently removes anyone who tries.

The LAW is irrelevant -- and selective enforcement is how things work in Israel.

Instead of addressing the real issue, which is selective enforcement, Rafi chose to protest the demonstrations.

And by the way, its not even clear from Rafi G's post who he is referring to. "The kids who started the protests over the Chavat Gilad evacuation need to be stopped."

Is he referring to the kids who were on Chavat Gilad and protested the destruction as it was happening? I thought he meant the kids who blocked traffic AFTER the destruction at Chavat Gilad, who blocked traffic at intersections around the country -- who were protesting the Police shooting rubber/plastic bullets at Jews.

At what point do the government's "political considerations" deserve protest?

Is it the biometric national database, which is being pushed by MK Meir Shitrit? He allegedly is pushing the database because of a personal financial interest with HP. Can we protest that? Or does the rule of law prevent it?

Can we protest rising gas prices?

Can we protest rising water prices?

Are we allowed to protest anything at all, or does the mamlachtiyut of the rule of law mean that we need to go like sheep?

You can protest anything. especially if your intention is to overthrow the government. just look at the arab world.

you kind of expect people whose houses are being destroyed to resist. I was referring to the protests after the fact, but the original protests were also included. The reason is because it is not like they have a house and community they have been living in for 30 years, like Gush Katif or Yamit, with the permits and support of the government. the whole thing was illegal from the start and for the purpose of provoking the government and the world.

I have no problem with that, as long as you also take into account that the result might be the chance of being evicted. People can do what they want and feel is right, as long as they are aware that there are repercussions to their actions. They might get away with it for x amount of time, like cheating on taxes or not showing up to kollel consistently, or whatever, but eventually it will most likely catch up with you.

Rafi: If you own a personal piece of property, and if you were an Arab, you could build on it, without a permit...and no one would touch your home. If you own a personal piece of property and are a Jew, then your home without a permit gets destroyed. The only reason you don't have a permit is because the minister of defense refuses to sign it.

Do you honestly believe that is the same as cheating on your taxes, which is gezel, or not showing up for kollel which is also gezel?

Comparing the 2 seems highly unfair.

According to your logic, a person who builds a sukka (obviously against the housing code) is participating in an illegal act, and should be punished the same as tax evasion?!

It's like anything else I guess, people on one side find rationales and people on the other have their explanations.

How far can you really take the 'they do it (build illegally) so we should be able to as well. My children can't use that argument so adults shouldn't either. Aside from the fact that it's a bad analogy. See what happens if some Palestinians came and built illegally (on land they bought?) in Rannana? as opposed to illegal supposedly, building in Taibeh. At least compare apples to apples.

And to argue with sincerity, to pretend as if the settlers kids didn't build illegally in order to provoke a confrontation. Who are we kidding?

"The Way" --

My cousins in Chavat Gilad don't live there as a provocation...they live there because they want to hold onto as much land in Eretz Yisrael as possible.

Arik Sharon said, "Everybody has to move; run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours." (JPost) So you're saying that Sharon meant that as a provocation?

By the way - you MUST be kidding, when you mention analogies.

When Palestinians build illegally in areas B and C in the West Bank, nobody says boo. So we are talking apples to apples.

And just to make the point stronger, I can't believe you mentioned "as opposed to illegal supposedly, building in Taibeh."

Anyone's who's driven on road 444 through Taibeh can see the illegal construction everywhere. Here's a quote from Haaretz about it...

"The inhabitants complain that the municipality is withholding its employees' salaries, as in the past. They angrily point out the heaps of garbage at the sides of the roads, tell about illegal construction on public property and complain of a terrible education system." (Haaretz)

Taibeh is FULL of illegal construction...and the police are too scared to go in and enforce the law.

Its much easier to go into Chavat Gilad, where they know there wont be serious resistance, and they can fire plastic bullets at the residents to make a point, with zero retribution.

Regardless, Rafi's entire post isn't about the building in Chavat Gilad, nor about the police shooting people in Chavat Gilad -- it was simply that he was annoyed at the reaction of people who demonstrated against the police's illegal behavior.

J,

So everything Sharon said stays true forever regardless of how long ago he said it and what has happened since? He hasn't been able to say anything in how long? That arguent is like the Orthodox who trot out something Ben Gurion said to justify not doing the army and receiving stipends generations later, as if they don't spit on his name on every other issue.
Neither Sharon or Ben-Gurion or anyone else speaks for Israel for all time and supersedes the law.
And if you do want to listen to Sharon then follow everything he said, don't just cherry pick quotes that are convenient as an excuse for these behaviors.

As for those relatives of yours, if they bought there and live legally then you bringing them into the argument has no relevance except as a cheap emotional anchoring trick. Because, I couldn't have been clearer that I was discussing settler, mostly kids, who built illegal buildings in order to create a confrontation. What do I care about people who follow the law and are not sparking confrontation, how do they matter to this event?

You might be right that there is a plethora of illegal building in Taibeh, which doesn't address the they get to... argument that my kids make. If they jump off a bridge are you going to?

Rafi's post wasn't about people demonstrating against police illegal behavior, it was about people demonstrating as police demolished illegally built structures. But I was mostly commenting on a compilation of comments about the post.

Rafi=s'molani.

Rafi, I don't see you jumping up to write a post about the illegal Arab construction. Nothing. Nada. So, cute way to get traffic to your site. Again.

We should do nothing but support our brothers in Chavat Gilad, 100%. Because of their courage we might hang on to a little bit more of our tiny country before the Government capitulates to international pressure and we find ourselves without a country, G-d forbid.

Rafi, The youth who heroically stood up to the occupation/expulsion forces should be given a medal, not thrown under the bus.

You should be ashamed, Rafi.

B"H

Rafi,

1. Rule of law, yes, but which law? It is increasing difficult to keep both Torah Law and Israel law simultaneously.

2. Israeli law does not apply in Yehudah and Shomron. It is governed by the military, no matter how much Alon Shvut and Ofra residents want to believe otherwise.

3. I am surprised that I have to remind you that Havat Gilad was purchased from the Arab owner of the land years ago. The state wants to pasul it because of the same reason it pasuls everything it doesn't like: It is afraid of Jews you hold HaQadosh Barukh Hu and His Torah in higher authority than Israeli Law.

4. Not hefker? I beg to differ. This goes back to the mahoqeth regarding kibbush yehid vs. kibbush tzibur/rabbim. Not all halakhic authorites agree with your take on this. Rav Eliztur Sege"l (Ofra) has said the Arabs must produce a shtar, which they do not. We do not accept kibbush yishma'eli.

5. If what the Zar Family did re: Havat Gilad was wrong, then all the more so, this delegitimizes countless yishuvim, which were not originally "approved"

6. This is a halakhic matter. Why does the State have any say in halakhic matters? Because it's holding the purse strings, that's why. Settlers should stop taking the gov't's money, as difficulty as that may seem.

7. Actually, all matters are halakhic matters for Jews, including how to run a government, how to fight a war, and how to acquire property, not just "Shabbos and Kashrus shailos." Unfortunately, no one seems to get this.

8. I have yet to hear anything comparable to this violence, and to the treatment of the protesters within the so called green line (where Israeli law supposedly does apply), from the anarchists in Bil'in,...more differential treatment.