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Jul 21, 2011
Quote Of The Day
Quote Of The Day
There is indeed a problem with some people who don't realize they have joined the army and not a yeshiva..
--- Brigadier-General (Res) Elazar Stern, regarding a recent event in which religious soldiers (officers, if I remember correctly) were forced to stay at an event in which female soldiers were singing
I'm confused, on one hand the country is critical of Charedim for not joining the army, yet at the same time, elements within the army make it an ideological point that joining the army REQUIRES compromise on religious standards, even if there is no military benifit (unless someone can explain the military benifit of forcing soldiers to listen to women siniging against their moral principles)
i agree. if the army wants to integrate yeshiva boys into the army, they have to be considerate of their needs and priorities, and try to not create such conflicts. That is the idea of Nahal Haredi, Shahar and other programs designed for that.
the only difference here is that it was not such a unit (I dont think the people involved were haredim either), and it was specifically an officer. The soldiers who said they dont want to be there were allowed to not come. It was specifically an officer, and he was told that being that he is an officer he has to be there.
First of all, so what if they weren't Chareidi? Is kol ishah permitted for Dati Leumi?
Secondly, this is just an audible example of the religious-secular tension in the army. For decades the percentage of religious non-Chareidi officers has been climbing despite reputed efforts by the secular senior command to hold them back below certain ranks. Honestly, so he was an officer. It's not like he asked to miss a combat mission because it was 15 Av or something like that. If the seculars are so concerned, let them go after all the secular draft dodgers and so-called conscientious objectors.
i was not saying it is ok for dati leumi. I was just saying this was not one of the haredi programs, as there are some programs that are designed to integrate religious peopl einto the army and in those programs they try to create an environment where these things dont happen. This happened in the general army, not in one of these programs.
You raise an interesting point about units specifically catering to the needs of religious soldiers, however Elazar Stern has also come out strongly against such units, specifically his attempt to break up units made up only Hesder boys.
So Stern's opinion seems to be that there should not be units that cater to religious soldiers, and officers in integrated units should be prepared to compromise their religious standards.
If I was interested in discouraging Charedim from joining the army (which I'm not), I'd start printing quotes from this guy and hand them out in Charedi Batei Midrash.
it's a good thing Elazar Stern is no longer in the army, except for the resrves. He probably still has influence, but not much.
that specific fight has been going on a long time. Some see the army as a cultural thing, making one nation and all that jazz. According to that viewpoint, separate units are a bad thing, as they believe the army is about more than just fulfilling a duty to serve, but it fills a need of mixing cultures and creating a melting pot of culture.
Having separate units for charedim in the Israeli armed forces is al too reminiscent of the color-segregated units in the United States armed forces during World War II.
I'm confused, on one hand the country is critical of Charedim for not joining the army, yet at the same time, elements within the army make it an ideological point that joining the army REQUIRES compromise on religious standards, even if there is no military benifit (unless someone can explain the military benifit of forcing soldiers to listen to women siniging against their moral principles)
ReplyDeletei agree. if the army wants to integrate yeshiva boys into the army, they have to be considerate of their needs and priorities, and try to not create such conflicts. That is the idea of Nahal Haredi, Shahar and other programs designed for that.
ReplyDeletethe only difference here is that it was not such a unit (I dont think the people involved were haredim either), and it was specifically an officer. The soldiers who said they dont want to be there were allowed to not come. It was specifically an officer, and he was told that being that he is an officer he has to be there.
So listening to women sing is needed in order to protect the state?
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, so what if they weren't Chareidi? Is kol ishah permitted for Dati Leumi?
ReplyDeleteSecondly, this is just an audible example of the religious-secular tension in the army. For decades the percentage of religious non-Chareidi officers has been climbing despite reputed efforts by the secular senior command to hold them back below certain ranks. Honestly, so he was an officer. It's not like he asked to miss a combat mission because it was 15 Av or something like that.
If the seculars are so concerned, let them go after all the secular draft dodgers and so-called conscientious objectors.
i was not saying it is ok for dati leumi. I was just saying this was not one of the haredi programs, as there are some programs that are designed to integrate religious peopl einto the army and in those programs they try to create an environment where these things dont happen. This happened in the general army, not in one of these programs.
ReplyDeleteRafi,
ReplyDeleteYou raise an interesting point about units specifically catering to the needs of religious soldiers, however Elazar Stern has also come out strongly against such units, specifically his attempt to break up units made up only Hesder boys.
So Stern's opinion seems to be that there should not be units that cater to religious soldiers, and officers in integrated units should be prepared to compromise their religious standards.
If I was interested in discouraging Charedim from joining the army (which I'm not), I'd start printing quotes from this guy and hand them out in Charedi Batei Midrash.
it's a good thing Elazar Stern is no longer in the army, except for the resrves. He probably still has influence, but not much.
ReplyDeletethat specific fight has been going on a long time. Some see the army as a cultural thing, making one nation and all that jazz. According to that viewpoint, separate units are a bad thing, as they believe the army is about more than just fulfilling a duty to serve, but it fills a need of mixing cultures and creating a melting pot of culture.
Having separate units for charedim in the Israeli armed forces is al too reminiscent of the color-segregated units in the United States armed forces during World War II.
ReplyDelete