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Jul 8, 2012
Bein HaZmanim Cancelled Despite No War
During the Second Lebanon War the yeshivot debated whether or not to cancel the summer bein hazmanim and learn through the summer or to allow the boys their vacation. The primary concern was that it would look really bad that the country is at war, soldiers and reservists are being sent out to battle, and the yeshiva boys are out touring the country, and not learning. Another major concern was that the country would need the learning for protection and success, but would not have it because of the vacation.
The decision was for the most part to allow the vacation but to encourage the yeshiva boys to remain low key.
I read recently a story, told over by someone who was involved in the Plesner Committee and has a good relationship with the haredi community, that he remembered from the Second Lebanon War an incident. They had been fighting for a couple of weeks and had not even had time to go home to their families. One of the reservists in his group made sure to continue learning daf yomi every day despite the fighting and lack of time. They were finally released for a day to see their families, and this fellow had to go to his cousins funeral (had died in battle). As they were driving past Har Meron, they stopped to pick up 2 yeshiva boys who were hitchhiking. They spoke to them and asked about their being on vacation while the country is at war. It was an uncomfortable situation, and the boys were not really sensitive to the fact that they were out touring while the country was at war.
Today's situation is not quite the same. The country is not at war. It does not quite look so bad that boys are on summer vacation when everyone else is, as it did when the country was at war but the yeshiva boys were on hikes.
Yet, Rav Ovadiah Yosef still feels it is important enough, with the looming threats of Iran and Lebanon, and the current attempts to remove the yeshiva boys from learning in yeshiva and to send them to the army, that vacation should be canceled. this is a time for the boys to be learning and not touring. Rav Ovadiah suggests that if we do our part, Hashem will do His part in solving the crisis.
And sure enough, some yeshivot and kollelim affiliated with Rav Ovadiah have already announced that they are canceling their vacations and will be learning straight through.
On the one hand it is a show of faith, and a symbol of dedication. On the other hand, during the actual war the yeshivot decided to send the boys out on vacation, no gadol ended up supporting the idea of canceling the vacations, but now that their own system is being threatened, suddenly the threat is too great.
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The decision was for the most part to allow the vacation but to encourage the yeshiva boys to remain low key.
I read recently a story, told over by someone who was involved in the Plesner Committee and has a good relationship with the haredi community, that he remembered from the Second Lebanon War an incident. They had been fighting for a couple of weeks and had not even had time to go home to their families. One of the reservists in his group made sure to continue learning daf yomi every day despite the fighting and lack of time. They were finally released for a day to see their families, and this fellow had to go to his cousins funeral (had died in battle). As they were driving past Har Meron, they stopped to pick up 2 yeshiva boys who were hitchhiking. They spoke to them and asked about their being on vacation while the country is at war. It was an uncomfortable situation, and the boys were not really sensitive to the fact that they were out touring while the country was at war.
Today's situation is not quite the same. The country is not at war. It does not quite look so bad that boys are on summer vacation when everyone else is, as it did when the country was at war but the yeshiva boys were on hikes.
Yet, Rav Ovadiah Yosef still feels it is important enough, with the looming threats of Iran and Lebanon, and the current attempts to remove the yeshiva boys from learning in yeshiva and to send them to the army, that vacation should be canceled. this is a time for the boys to be learning and not touring. Rav Ovadiah suggests that if we do our part, Hashem will do His part in solving the crisis.
And sure enough, some yeshivot and kollelim affiliated with Rav Ovadiah have already announced that they are canceling their vacations and will be learning straight through.
On the one hand it is a show of faith, and a symbol of dedication. On the other hand, during the actual war the yeshivot decided to send the boys out on vacation, no gadol ended up supporting the idea of canceling the vacations, but now that their own system is being threatened, suddenly the threat is too great.
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This post shows that you totally dont get what this country is about to face.
ReplyDeleteExplain....
Deletesure, because whatever is about to happen is going to be much worse than an actual war...
ReplyDeleteI truly believe that a reasonable resolution will be arrived at at the last possible moment. I do not believe we are headed for civil war, nor will thousands of yeshiva bochurim be arrested and thrown into jail.
ReplyDeleteThe status quo will change, but I think it will be reasonable.
All work and no play makes Ya'akov a dull boy.
ReplyDeleteYeshivot vacations were not cancelled during the expulsion. And FWIW, the story about naive Yeshivah bochrim, no one was hitchhiking near Meron and not knowing a war was going on. If we just remember only 7 years ago, the entire north was regularly hit by rockets and air raid sirens were the norm all the way down even to Afula. The north was a no-mans land.
ReplyDeleteI wrote they were not sensitive to the fact that there was a war going on. they were busy with their vacation, looking for excitement. I did not say they didnt know there was a war. I dont remember what it was exactly that they said they were doing, or where they were going, but they were busy looking for the excitement.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteIf these yeshiva bochurim were looking for "the excitement", and they knew a war was in progress, why didn't they immediately sign up for service in the IDF?
DeleteThere was plenty of "excitement" going on there.
As I've written before, stop calling it Charedim in the military. The charedim play this up t be an epic calamity against Torah. That they're going to have to put on a uniform, live in a barrack with chilonim and not have any time to learn, daven, get kosher food and will be forced to listen to women singing. Wrong.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't have to be military. It can be other forms of national service. They can set up programs that are gender separate, they come home every night, regular access to food, time to daven in the morning before reporting for "work" and still have time for 1 seder a day.
I don't see how asking boys to take 18-24 months of their lives to be makir tov to the country that has given them the opportunity to learn full time, is a threat on par with war or destruction. I say it can be a good experience for them,and after they complete their service, they can go right back to full time learning.
I can appreciate that you don't see how it's damaging to take off a couple of years. But the gedolei Yisrael who stand at the helm of the yeshivah world do see how devastating that is for the future of Torah learning, and the chareidi world is indisputably going to follow their word.
DeleteThere's a shmooze from Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz about Rabbi Akiva: He heard his wife say that she wouldn't mind if he studied another 12 years. Rabbi Akiva turned around at that point and went back to Yavneh to learn. Why didn't he knock on the door to say hello to his wife who he hadn't seen for 12 years? Answers Rav Shmuelevitz: 12 + 12 is not 24. He never would have become the great Tanna Rabbi Akiva if there had been that interruption!
I think this new law, however it turns out, will force the young men who are really serious about learning to add a new layer of mesirus nefesh, self-sacrifice, for their Torah studies. Maybe they'll have to go to Switzerland at age 17 to continue learning, or do without any government funding, but the choice of self-sacrifice for their goals will ultimately strengthen them.
Well, I don't think it would make that much of a difference since the number of very serious young men is so tiny. The vast majority are just wasting their time until they can get an under the table job and make some money. It's time to wake up and recognize reality. Given the proliferation of charedi colleges, I think most people are, regardless of all the shmoozes and stories.
DeleteHow much time did you spend learning in yeshivos and kollelim? You're very, very wrong.
DeleteAbbi - I dont think thats a fair statement. the ast majority are not wasting their time. There is a significant enough percentage that is, and therefore the problem needs to be solved. but its not fair or right to say the vast majority is wasting their time.
DeleteI disagree. It's a waste of time because there's simply no reason the vast majority can't combine learning and work or learning and college studies or learning and national service, like in America, where there's no choice.
DeleteThis model has been working for nearly 60 years and it has yet to produce the gadol that it was allegedly supposed to. Instead, it's produced thousands if not millions of shnorrers, manipulative askanim and kids who don't know how to support the families they start producing at age 19. It's a model that has never ever existed on this scale in Jewish history and it was never meant to. It's a waste of time.
There's more to life than making a living. Some people see life as more than working to eat so you can have strength to work to eat to work to eat... The life of a cow. That's the real waste of time, the waste of a life.
DeleteWhat you're saying is practical, it's the MO model. Nothing new there, and the chareidim are not going to accept it.
As far as producing a gadol - apparently you're not aware that there are many, many profoundly knowledgeable talmeidei chachamim in the chareidi communities. I personally know dozens of them. Who will be the future leaders? Time will tell.
I imagine your door bell must be worn out from the millions of shnorrers
Well, I'd counter that there's more to life than schnorring and being poor. And I think many charedim are waking up to that hard fact.
DeleteWorking for a living is like being a cow? Really? Last I checked, cows don't pay large amounts of taxes from their hard earned salaries so everyone can enjoy safe roads, good healthcare, decent (could definitely be better schools) have army and police to protect them. And get nice stipends from the government for not doing the above. They don't spend money in stores or build houses so our economy can grow and everyone can gradually enjoy a higher standard of living. What a silly analogy. It's also silly that you weirdly assume people who work don't learn or strive for higher spiritual levels. Where does this horrid notion come from?
Actually, I've been very lucky that in my 12 years of living here, none of the schnorers have figured out where I live. I wouldn't give to them even if they found me.
Fine, so you agree there's more to life than working. You want to pay taxes and benefit other citizens. You want to be more than a cow, and not view our existence on this planet through the eyes of a cow. Maybe you're open to see the spiritual side of existence.
DeleteIt's no surprise to you that we also believe in olam haba. There's more to life than striving for a higher standard of living, this world is but a corridor to the world to come. Nice to be comfortable in the corridor, but we don't have to overdo it. The purpose of a corridor is to provide access to the main part of the house - the world to come.
My neighbors are those "world to come" type of Jews. They're poor by any standard, but they are good, sincere, happy, and wonderful people, as well as very highly accomplished in scholarship.
Will the government cut them off from their stipends if they don't do army service? Perhaps, and they'll be a little bit poorer (not much, those "nice" stipends are a pittance). But they'll weather the storm; they won't change.
David,
DeleteAbbi may not have learned in yeshiva in Israel but i did learn in the Mir for two years and I can't tell you how many kollel guys there are who don't manage to make it into the beis medrash for more than 2 out of 5 sedarim. Do you mind telling me why those guys don't need to go to the army?
Your neighbors might put on a show of happiness, and they might very well be happy in many aspects of their life. But they are probably also worrying if they can afford to buy a frozen chicken for shabbat. Stop romanticizing poverty. There's nothing wonderful or noble about it. And there's simply no reason for it.
DeleteAnd thanks anonymous for confirming my suspicions about how kollel really works.
Anon-I also learned in the Mir and I saw a different reality altogether. I guess it depends on who you hang out with.
DeleteThere's no statistics, so it's meaningless to argue if the masmidim are the tiny fraction, or the batlanim are the tiny fraction. But the consensus of bloggers like Emes V'Emuna (not chareidi) and others (who are chareidi) is that the vast majority of avreichim are learning full time as they should. My experience confirms this.
Besides, who said those guys don't need to go to the army? There's no exemption for chareidim, there is a deferment for those who are learning full time (toraso umnaso). I always heard, in the name of Rav Shach if I'm not mistaken, that those people who are faking it are like a rodef (not to be taken literally) and are ruining it for those who truly are toraso umnaso.
Practically speaking, it's become a blanket exemption for many who do not deserve it out of abuse of the system. But there's justification for that, not legally nor in halachah. And yes, the rabbis do speak out against it.
Abbi-I'm not romanticizing poverty. But the fact is that the avreichim I know are truly happy people, and I've lived with them for over thirty years so I know they're not faking it. And the reason they and their families are willing to live at a low standard of living is because they value the Torah above all else.
Were they Israeli or American????
ReplyDeleteIn 90's I studied in yeshiva located in Gueula, called Binian Olam.
ReplyDeleteThe techars and bachurim yeshiva made lashon hara about chilonim, chabad, dati leumi, ..., and sad no lashon hara about them. Talked that everybody are going to guehinom.
They no work, no ahavat Israel, no chessed, only studied Torah but no had capability to acarat hatov about peoples.
Today we see the crazy that this people are. No works, no studies secular things, opress the woman, no support the army and sherut leumi and living a religion based in christian medieval tales.
They don't get out of european ghettos, building stheitles in Israel and no have hacarat a tov to secular zionist and hashem that return us to Israel.
Think of all of the accidents that happen and boys killed during bein hazmannim because they're not fit and can't swim. The yeshiva boys need training, physical training.
ReplyDeleteOne can't help but wonder if this isn't, at least in part, politically motivated. While Iran and Lebanon are serious threats, they have been and will continue to be so. On the other hand, Eli Yishai (essentially representing Rabbi Yosef politically) has stated that the issue of drafting/national service is one of Yeihareig V'al Yaavor. It certainly would not be a smooth PR/Political move to say that we're keeping the boys learning to defeat any move to draft Chareidim or to put on a good show for brownie points.
ReplyDeleteKikar reports that they're cancelling trips in Bein HaZmanin purely becuase of the threat to draft yeshivah students, and no other reason is mentioned. They are saying that we're keeping the boys learning to defeat the move to draft them, and we'll praying to Hashem that He'll have mercy and help us, becuase the only way we can survive in Israel is with Torah study. http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/בין-הזמנים-בחזון-עובדיה-בוטל.html
DeleteIt's religiously motivated, and the political parties are tools to get what the the rav and his tzibbur want.
That is the definition of politically motivated.
DeleteThey don't want "their flock" to be part of the Jewish state. They are afraid that if they join the army, they won't blindly follow the Charedi leadership. If they cared about Torah and Mitzvot, then they would be sending their students to the Army and listening to Moshe Rabeinu who asked how they can sit while their brothers are fighting.
There is not a single pasuk or halacha which allows a Jew to avoid a Jewish Draft based on learning Torah!
Does it have to be all or nothing? Why not just shorten the vacation time to a week or two - you know like the average worker in Israel. It has always irked me just how long bein hazmanim seems to be. Particularly those weeks before succot etc. Funny how everyone else manages to work all year with just a few short weeks vacation. It really annoys me when I drive back from work and see all those haredi men and boys wandering around tiyuling - these same people who can't possibly do any kind of national service because they are so busy learning every minute of the day. They are very visible when they are on vacation, and they need to be aware that the average joe (or yossi) who doesn't live in Jerusalem, sees them vacationing for weeks on end and is not sympathetic to their claims that they are studying non-stop.
ReplyDelete"Eli Yishai (essentially representing Rabbi Yosef politically) has stated that the issue of drafting/national service is one of Yeihareig V'al Yaavor.
ReplyDeleteIf Yishai and his cronies do not make any concessions on the "al ya'avor" Israel stands an excellent chance of being plunged into a civil war - the "yeihareig".
Is that what the charedim really want? No wonder a well-respected commentator on a certain Jewish news aggregation site has coined the epithet "black-hatted parasites"!
well actually Darth, there won't be a civil war, the charediim won't join the army to fight.
ReplyDeletewell actually Darth, there won't be a civil war, the charediim won't join the army to fight.
ReplyDeletePerhaps The Way really meant to write "the charediim won't join an army to fight"?
perhaps darth shouldn't use a pedantic response to kill a cute comment and avoid both the funny and the point.
ReplyDeleteOMG did I not capitalise the D in darth? Gosh, I better watch out for the internet grammer police.