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Jul 10, 2012
How Many MagenDavids Does the Hotel Have?
A new idea is being researched for improving the level of kashrut in hotels. It would be something similar to how hotels are rated for quality - 5 star hotel, 4 star hotel, etc. When you see a hotel advertised as 5-star, you know it includes a pool and a gym and a certain level of food quality and service, luxury etc. When it says 4-star hotel you know they provide tan upscale hotel with quality and comfort. 3-star means quality, style , comfort and convenience, etc.
The same would work with kashrus, if the new system gets implemented.
Chief Rabbi Yonah Metzger is looking into creating a sense of competition among hotels and create a rating system for the level of kashrut in the hotels. the desire to retain a higher standard of reliability and kashrut would come not as a demand from the outside - the mashgiach demanding it or some customers. Rather, the hotels themselves would demand it, the thinking goes, so that they can market themselves as a five-star or four-star kashrut hotel.
Personally I would change it from 5-star or 4-star to magen davids. This is a 5-magendavid hotel, and thatis a 4-magendavid hotel, etc.
According to the report in NRG, this is how the rating would go:
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The same would work with kashrus, if the new system gets implemented.
Chief Rabbi Yonah Metzger is looking into creating a sense of competition among hotels and create a rating system for the level of kashrut in the hotels. the desire to retain a higher standard of reliability and kashrut would come not as a demand from the outside - the mashgiach demanding it or some customers. Rather, the hotels themselves would demand it, the thinking goes, so that they can market themselves as a five-star or four-star kashrut hotel.
Personally I would change it from 5-star or 4-star to magen davids. This is a 5-magendavid hotel, and thatis a 4-magendavid hotel, etc.
According to the report in NRG, this is how the rating would go:
- 2-star hotel: bearing a regular teudat kashrut
- 3-star hotel: not employing non-Jews in the food prep process.
- 4-star hotel: using only meat that is mehadrin (it says buying meat only from a machmir haredi butcher. I define that to mean "mehadrin beef")
- 5-star hotel: the entire hotel is shomer shabbat and no tzniyus issues - employee uniforms are tzanua, no music played in the lobbies on shabbat, employees wont talk on the telephone on Shabbat, designating separate times for mens-only and womens-only swimming, Shabbos elevators etc.
I am sure that once this is approved and officially publicized, some people will be upset and claim religious-coercion. I don't see it that way. The hotels will be accepting upon themselves whatever level they want based on whatever type of community they are tryign to attract to their hotels as potential customers.
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This is a totally superfluous excuse by the rabannut to exercise holier-than-thou-ness and make the frum Jewish public feel really good about shunning those terrible dens of sin that rachmanah litzlan only manage a measly two stars and a blatant attempt to stick their noses where they don't belong. This is coercion. We all know the dynamic. The hotels will vie for a higher rating in order to woo the faithful while the rest of us will suffer in silence from the market forces.
ReplyDeleteAnd who invented this scale? What happens to a hotel with Arab cooks in the kitchen and no elevator music on Shabbat? Who decided which mitzvot, humrot and hiddurim are suddenly worth more than others? Didn't Hazal already say (Avot 2:1) והוי זהיר במצוה קלה כבחמורה, שאין אתה יודע מתן שכרן של מצות ?
An unintended consequence may be a polarization where if you don't have a five-star for frumness you might as well not have a rating at all leaving the public with a choice of either a five star we-do-all-humras hotel or treif.
And you know the level 5 hotels will charge much more, even if their non-chumra-related amenities are substandard.
ReplyDeleteRafi S - Its unfortunate that cynics like you are waiting to scream religious coercion whenever they get the chance. It happens to be in this case that it will be a totally voluntary program. If a hotel would like a star rating, great. If not, also great. Only thing that changes is that consumers who are either way looking for those standards, will be able to find an accommodating hotel easily.
ReplyDeleteIts rather coincidental that we don't hear cynics like you screaming against coercion, when it's secularists forcing others to join the army against their beliefs.
"Join the army against their beliefs". So Haredim believe suddenly in pacifism? Since when has Judaism believed in pacifism? Avraham was a pacifist? Moshe? Yehoshua?, Rabbi Akiva? Rambam? Ramban? I think you are confused. I think you mean "against their desires".
DeleteRamat,
ReplyDeletewill it really be voluntary or will they still give ratings to those that don't sign up but better ratings to those that do?
and by what right can the army coerce anyone to serve? Why are the charediim so special? Either everyone serves or make it a volunteer/career force. Why should my kids be forced to serve when charedi kids don't? And I only have 2 kids, I'm secular... a charedi family could risk 4 or 5 kids in the military and still have half their kids safe and sound.
I agree totally that the army has no right to coerce anyone to serve. But if you believe that they do have the right from a legal standpoint, I think that you can see a difference between having no desire to serve, and it being against your religious beliefs to serve like rafi s has so nicely pointed out. Yes he may argue, but no religious Jew will join the army until the gedolim pasken that the israeli army a)is lacking soldiers b)will not suck out the Judaism out of Jews like many zionists have done since the founding of the state.
DeleteWhat is a 1 Magen David hotel? No teudah, but ample pictures of Rav Ovadiah and the Baba Sali?
ReplyDeletemy guess would be no teuda but a magen david on the wall. maybe an israeli flag (because it has a magen david on it)
ReplyDeleteI suppose a six Magen David establishment will not only enforce separate hours for swimming, but will also drain the pool and refill it between sessions.
ReplyDeleteThis is such a cockamamie idea that I will hazard a pun and suggest that it is ill-starred.
How come this thread - on kashrut standards in hotels - has been hijacked by the anti-gius gang?
ReplyDelete"not employing non-Jews in the food prep process"
ReplyDeleteWhat's the problem with non-Jewish staff as long as there's a mashgiach?
Does the "gold standard" of kashrut now require xenophobia?
Its called bishul yisrael which causes many issues for sephardim and sometimes even for ashkenazim.
DeleteIs the new gold standard for commenters stupidity?
Bad idea. Bad idea because it will only exacerbate the politicization of kashrut that already exists. Who's to say that a Badatz hecksher is better than a rabbinute hechsher? Or that one rabbinut is better than another? What about shmita? Will heter mechira automatically reduce the rating? Some people think it is more "kosher" to rely on the heter mechira than to buy Arab-grown "mehadrin" produce. Or if not heter mechira, then otzar haaretz.
ReplyDeleteWith the current system, people can evaluate the various heksherim and decide for themselves what best meets their standards. Putting a value judgment on this process will just cause more machloket and bad feelings all around.
There are dozens of Kosher hotels and not all hotels are suitable for certain standards. Therefore when searching for a suitable hotel it may take a long time of asking questions to the hotel staff until one finds something appropriate.
DeleteThough, what problem do you have if they help people who hold of more machmir standards? If you don't hold by those standards, all you have to do is ask if they have a teuda and you're good. People like you find to feel hurt if anyone religious has an easier time than usual.
People like me? Do you know me? Do you know what kashrut standards I keep? What exactly is a "person like me"?
DeleteAnd I didn't say anything against, or about, people keeping more machmir standards. I think you read that into my comment, for whatever reason.
It's not always a question of more or less machmir. Some people, believe it or not, hold that certain rabbinutes are more reliable than some of the "B'datz" hechshirim, and not all rabbinutes are considered equal. For example, Mehadrin Rehovot is very well respected by many people. The shmitta issue is a perfect example of a case in which "machmir" means different things to different people. The hotel rating system would involve making value judgments that many would probably disagree with on hashkafic grounds, and I see no reason to engage the rabbinute in more of these types of judgements than it already has to make.
I agree with Rafi S that the standards are a gross oversimplification and therefore create an inconsistent picture.
ReplyDeleteWhy should the Shmirat Shabbat and tznius aspects only be relevant at level 5, making them an all-or-nothing?
Non-Jews as kitchen staff is a kashrut issue, but so is non-religious Jews in the kitchen staff, yet that is off the listing. (I personally argue that many secular Jews aren't 100% secular, but if they're talking about reliability among the kitchen staff, they have to check tzitzis....)
Non religious Jews cooking is an ultra chumra that even most of the ultra-mehadrin agencies don't worry about.
DeleteAnd that, Anonymous, leaves you with an ultra business opportunity to start the super premium badatz which allows only religious Jews in the kitchen. It could be paired with a staffing firm to place religious Jews by the ultra kitchen full.
DeleteSeems like a mere spin or at most not really thought out.
ReplyDelete