That's actually a very interesting way of looking at things. I disagree about anything being an official state religion, because there is no such thing. But now that he points it out, I think his argument about the kotel still makes a lot of sense, because the Kotel is an Orthodox Jewish site, no less than St Peter's is Catholic, l'havdil elef havdalos. I make this bold assertion, because frankly the Conservative and Reform movements have no connection to the site, being that they denigrate the need for, or longing for, the rebuilding of the Temple. Since they see no need for a Temple on that site, it is clear that to them its location is incidental, definitely not "holy", and their coming to assert their "rights" there is like Protestants coming and asserting their "rights" to use St Peter's basilica for their prayer groups. Why don't they demand rights to pray on the Temple Mount, too? It's motivated by politics, not by any desire to serve G-d.

well, you could say that that WAS true, but now these women of the wall are making, or trying to make, such a connection, but others arent allowing them to. so is the contuned lack of connection their fault or because somebody is actively preventing it?

just like they should be advocating for prayer on Temple Mount, all those who go to Har Habayit and wish prayer was allowed there should be supporting the right of these women to pray.

My point is that they are not doing this because they believe the site is holy to them. V'hara'yah: ask any one of them if they would want or pray for the Temple to be rebuilt. Or ask straight out: do you believe in G-d? Do you believe this site is intrinsically holy, and your service of G-d here is more meaningful than any other place? If so, why? Why do you want to pray here, and not on the Temple Mount? Are you choshesh for kareis? Or maybe you believe the Temple Mount is a Muslim holy site, not a Jewish one? And if the Temple means nothing to you, then what significance does the kotel have?

Bottom line, I think it is very clear that the only reason they have chosen this site to pray at is because they are opposed to Orthodoxy, and they are trying to score political points at Orthodoxy's holiest site.

yet http://finkorswim.com/2012/10/22/is-anat-hoffman-a-victim-of-religious-persecution-at-the-western-wall/ argues her behaviour is not against haalacha.....

I agree they arent doing anything against halacha. But they are doing things against societal norms, and against tradition, and against normal behavior at the Kotel (though so much other abnormal behavior is going on there, that this shouldnt even register as a blip on the radar screen). especially if you accept Landau's point that orthodox judaism is the state religion, or if you take it to just mean orthodox judaism is the dominant sect here and what sets the tone for acceptable public religious behavior.

Given his feelings about rape, it's pretty hard to swallow that he's Orthodox.

As to the comment about political opposition, I don't think it's any more political to expect people to respect the Kotel by abiding by Jewish tradition, than it is for Muslims to expect visitors to their mosques to take off their shoes. Everywhere else people understand that you respect the local customs. Why, when it come to Jewish holy sites, does that not apply?

This POV might hold water if it wasn't the site of military induction ceremonies and didn't hold a central place in our collective national consciousness as well our collective religious consciousness. St. Peter's Basilica is not a monument of national significance. It's purely religious. Non-religious Italians might admire its architecture and historical significance, but it doesn't hold a central place in the Italian people's collective national consciousness. I don't think the way the kotel does.

The soldiers who liberated it in 67 weren't necessarily religious, AFAIK. But they and all the generals and the army and the whole nation appreciated the significance of liberating it. And it wasn't because they all suddenly became baalei tshuva. It's because it's a central piece of our history as a people in addition to be a central piece of our religion. I just don't think you can blithely divorce the two.

Rafi,
It appears you are saying that the majority get rights and not the minority. So until the minority increases their numbers, they don't have the right to be treated fairly in their eyes. I don't believe this is correct. Don't we Western Jews believe in minority rights???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcIdyJtmYgI


Someday I hope you'll rise your voices against your own discrimination of the palestinian people. You're repeting somthing you've sufferd... Israel is based on pure racism and evil.

Shaul -

That you don't understand, respect or appreciate the majority streams of Judaism is obvious from how you assume and state your understanding of their views. But just because you don't understand how most Jews view and live Judaism doesn't make your minority sect 'right.'

There are many cultural/historical/religious sites that share space with other sects and other religions - Church of holy sepulcher is an example.

The issue is this: if the orthodox are righteous and correct, why does landau fear them looking like backwards benighted fools for behaving in their normal fashion?

Furthermore, given that orthodoxy is not the state religion, shouldn't non-violent acts of civil disobedience be encouraged in a democracy? Or if Orthodoxy is the State Religion, what does that do to the orthodox argument of Israel is a secular state and not to be supported?

And, yes, I think more Jews should come to Israel regardless of their affiliation.

Fine words, as they say here in Jersey, butter no parsnips.

As potential returnees to Israel, my wife and family not only have to consider the country's shaky economy, its poor political standing in the word (but nothing there has changed in the last 64 years) but now also a nation that constantly seems to be standing on the very precipice of civil war between warring Jewish factions.

If the good folks of Israel in general, and RBS in particular, are still spitting at young girls, throwing rocks and worse at their fellow citizens whose standards of Yiddishkeit do not appear to match their own I think I shall carry on here in Jersey.

Yes, I have to have almost every single item that my family and I use or consume flown in, either from the British mainland or from Paris, but thank G-d I am spared seeing grown and apparently mature Jewish men behaving like animals. No, that is a grave discourtesy to animals.

We have a shul here, we have a cemetery here. What we lack, though, is the stress and general bloody-mindedness that has come to typify orthodox Judaism in Israel over the past few years.

I do not see those phenomena among Jews in the United Kingdom, nor do I see it in France or in Belgium. If Israel really wanted religious Jews - of any stripe - to make aliya then the nation really needs sort sort out its mess - right now.

Tzuress? Israeli religious/political tzuress? Who needs them?

Darth Zeidah: So much to say in response, but I'll just leave it at a suggestion to you to do a thorough study of Parshas Sh'lach, and consider which group of spies you want to identify with.

Thank you, Shaul B, for your kind suggestion. I was aware of Parashat Shlach many years ago - and probably even before your parents met. It happens to be my barmitzvah portion, so I learned it and its implications in great depth. I am aware of the current realities of life in Israel, too.

Meanwhile, I shall let the so-called "tzadikim" living in Israel beat the living daylights out of each other, to say nothing of their attempting to impose their own life-style on chilonim who want absolutely nothing to do with it or them.

Organised religion is one thing, but ramming a religion down the throats of people who have little interest in it is downright iniquitous.

Ironically, there is an historic precedent: the Spanish Inquisition.

I happen to agree with Darth in pretty much everything, especially what he just wrote, except one main point. in my opinion, even with all the above being true, it isnt a reason to avoid Israel.