Mar 17, 2013
Why Haredi schools wont implement the core curriculum
I heard an interview this morning on Radio Kol B'Rama (haredi station) with MK Menachem Eliezer Mozes (UTJ), who is also the outgoing Deputy Minister of Education. He said something that is crucial to understanding the Haredi [political] position on the issue of "core curriculum", and also for many other issues.
The discussion centered on what they expect the new incoming government to change, with requiring schools to study/teach the core curriculum in order to qualify for funding. The law was quoted, explaining the process, and the new Minister of Education has a certain amount of time to formulate and pass the guidelines of what will be included as part of the required content of education that schools must minimally teach.
As an aside, and this was not mentioned in the interview, but with a religious man (Rav Shay Piron) holding the Ministry of Education portfolio, and with him coming from a party that even though "not religious", it talks about Jewish values and increasing Jewish education, I would hope that part of the core curriculum he will formulate will include a certain amount of Jewish studies, including Torah and Jewish History. After all, the core curriculum is the same minimal requirements for all the secular schools in the country as it is for the religious schools.
Back to the main point, the interviewer asked MK Mozes saying that it is very possible that nothing problematic will be included in the core curriculum, and what would be so bad if we had to teach a little bit more math, a little bit more dikduk (grammar), some English or whatnot.
The answer supplied by MK Mozes was not anything to the tune of secular studies are not necessary, nor was it anything even close to secular studies taking away from Torah study time, or anything like the secular studies might pull students away and pique interest in things not related to yiddishkeit.
The response given by MK Mozes was, and I have heard similar responses in the past given regarding other issues though none quite as succinctly as that given today by Mozes, שלא יכתיבו לנו. They cannot tell us what to do. We do not listen to secular authorities. We do not want our children being educated in a curriculum dictated by secular authorities.
And that is really the crux of the entire conflict between secular Israel and the haredi community, whether it is in regard to education of secular studies or army service or other things. It does not matter if the education is good or bad. It does not matter if the civil service is good or bad. What can be so bad about a local haredi 20 year old man volunteering his time in a haredi organization like Ezrat Achim or Ezra l'Marpeh? What can be so bad about some basic math and grammar? What can be so bad about an 18 year old who is not learning in yeshiva anyway going to a haredi-designed unit in the army? Nothing really, but we don't want them telling us what to do.
The discussion centered on what they expect the new incoming government to change, with requiring schools to study/teach the core curriculum in order to qualify for funding. The law was quoted, explaining the process, and the new Minister of Education has a certain amount of time to formulate and pass the guidelines of what will be included as part of the required content of education that schools must minimally teach.
As an aside, and this was not mentioned in the interview, but with a religious man (Rav Shay Piron) holding the Ministry of Education portfolio, and with him coming from a party that even though "not religious", it talks about Jewish values and increasing Jewish education, I would hope that part of the core curriculum he will formulate will include a certain amount of Jewish studies, including Torah and Jewish History. After all, the core curriculum is the same minimal requirements for all the secular schools in the country as it is for the religious schools.
Back to the main point, the interviewer asked MK Mozes saying that it is very possible that nothing problematic will be included in the core curriculum, and what would be so bad if we had to teach a little bit more math, a little bit more dikduk (grammar), some English or whatnot.
The answer supplied by MK Mozes was not anything to the tune of secular studies are not necessary, nor was it anything even close to secular studies taking away from Torah study time, or anything like the secular studies might pull students away and pique interest in things not related to yiddishkeit.
The response given by MK Mozes was, and I have heard similar responses in the past given regarding other issues though none quite as succinctly as that given today by Mozes, שלא יכתיבו לנו. They cannot tell us what to do. We do not listen to secular authorities. We do not want our children being educated in a curriculum dictated by secular authorities.
And that is really the crux of the entire conflict between secular Israel and the haredi community, whether it is in regard to education of secular studies or army service or other things. It does not matter if the education is good or bad. It does not matter if the civil service is good or bad. What can be so bad about a local haredi 20 year old man volunteering his time in a haredi organization like Ezrat Achim or Ezra l'Marpeh? What can be so bad about some basic math and grammar? What can be so bad about an 18 year old who is not learning in yeshiva anyway going to a haredi-designed unit in the army? Nothing really, but we don't want them telling us what to do.
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Except that everywhere else in the world the government does tell them what to do and they listen.
ReplyDeleteExactly as bluke says.
ReplyDeleteMoreoever, the government spends money on public education because it is an investment in the future of the country. It is an investment in the economy, so that there will be an educated public capable of earning a living and advancing the country economically. It is an investment socially, so that there will be an educated public capable of participating in a democractic society.
What public education is NOT, but what much of the haredi leadership seems to consider it, is an entitlement to be used by every different group however that group sees fit.
good point. my first comment was that if they feel שלא יכתיבו לנו they need to stop telling everyone else what to do. Stop telling people how they can or cannot marry, divorce, eating on 9 Av or whatever. When you insist on telling others what to do, you cannot complain when they tell you what to do.
ReplyDeletewithout getting into the status quo stuff: the שלא יכתיבו לנו stuff is an ideological argument with secular zionism. the claim that "everywhere else in the world" is true, but irrelevant (for the chareidim). the agudah in the US has no argument with obama qua obama. they may not like this or that policy and they may even despise obama, but they have no argument with the USA per se.
Deletethat is not true in israel. the agudah and the secular zionist state are, at some level, at each other's throats. the secular zionist state isn't nearly as ideological as it was so today this aspect has been buried. but the chareidim?
on shabbat someone said that when porush brought the aguda into begin's government, he agreed to put the ideological stuff on the back burner. and there it remained. but we saw signs of it all the time. this fight about the army long ago long ago left its original "shevet levi, talmud torah" aspect. i mean, b'emet, even if you do buy the shevet levi argument, does anyone believe that shevet levi includes every person capable of learning 2 sedarim a day? and why the defense of guys who don't learn at all? but going into the army is seen as the ultimate collusion with the zionist entity. back in the old days, when one's bituach leumi payments depended on serving, OK so you made sure to go in for a few months. but today?
or the heter michirah fight. does rav elyashiv's struggle against the heter make any sense, given that there are so many poskim who held that the heter worked?
i also heard mozes this morning. of course no one called on this point and i don't even know if most of the world would understand the problem. israeli politicians are very short sighted and only think about the next possible deal.
Being that the education ministry was given to Yesh Atid, which (reportedly) refused to sit in a government with hareidi parties, I can see why they take that attitude. Assuming that the plan had little hareidi input (and this is only conjecture), I would understand it even more.
ReplyDeleteIt seems whether they are invited or not the charedi parties always refuse to have a dialogue or work out any kind of compromise.
Deleteyes, though they have had the same attitude in every other government as well. the fight for limudei liba is not beginning now - it has been going on for years. even years in which the haredi parties did sit in the government
ReplyDeleteThat's the problem - it's been a fight. Has anyone at the minister level ever sat down with the chareidi parties and said, these are our concerns, we understand that these are your concerns, what can we do to accommodate you, and what are you willing to do to accommodate us?
DeleteEveryone would do well to remember that diplomacy has been described as "the gentle art of letting someone else get your way."
when plessner had his committee, the chareidi parties refused to participate. had they joined and signed on, they would have gotten a much better deal than what is being talked about now. but they said "you don't talk to evil ones". OK they didn't talk.
Deletewhat mozes said reminds me of the brisker rav's famous statement about their girls serving in sherut leumi - even if they were to say tehillim all day long while living at home, it would still be יהרג ולא יעבור.
ReplyDeleteThere is something deeper underlying this feeling.
ReplyDeleteA) Forget what the politicians are saying, and get the real feeling from the gedolim who decide.
B) Nonetheless, I totally empathize with them because they want to be partners in building the country. Kicking them out of the coalition at a time when there is already more Haredi participation in the army, civil service, higher education, and workplace is just stupid and spiteful. What would happen if Lapid made an agreement with Avoda and said - no datiim in the coalition? Would the dati-leumi crowd accept budget cuts in the hesder yeshiva and reducing the numbers of students, as well as reducing torah courses in elementary school to add secular hours?
its happened several times that the mafdal or ichud leumi was not included in the government.
DeleteNot being included is not the same as having partners in the coalition refuse to even consider sitting in the same government with them.
DeleteYoni, I agree. This was despicable discrimination. It is one think to have a political disagreement, but another to specifically boycott two political parties based on their ethnic background.
DeleteI agree as well. rather than a boycott, the PM should have laid out the policy he plans to pursue and anybody willing to work with that should have been invited to the coalition. With policy being dictated by other parties (YA and BY), that still could have worked, as he could have hashed out with them a set of policies and then said to everyone else, who wants in. Instead a boycott was in place,.
DeleteThen again, the Arab parties have always been boycotted, so this is nothing all that new. As well, Meretz has been boycotted by the Right, and the right has been boycotted by Meretz and others on the Left. Didnt Tzippi Livni say she wont sit with BY (though in the end she is) in the government coalition?
Regardless of the boycott being wrong, that has nothing to do with the haredi rejection of implementing core curriculum studies in its educational system.
But what about the idea that those 2 charedi parties were doing some nasty name-calling against them? Didn't they just turn around and say ok you say you can't sit with us, we've tried and we won't either ?
DeleteBy the way, according to that reasoning, the Arab schools would also have the right to teach anything they want, since no Arab party has ever been part of a governing coalition, nor has any Arab party ever been asked to participate in a coalition, nor has any Arab party ever been welcome to participate in a coalition. I'm talking about Arab schools within the green line, obviously.
ReplyDeleteI guess you can take it even farther and say that if there were a school affiliated with Meretz or the Labor party, they would also be able to say that the government can't dictate to them, since they are not represented in the coalition.
My point is that it's not a valid argument to say that only population sectors represented in the coalition are obligated to obey the law. There's no inherent right for any party or sector to be included in the coalition, and the haredim are the last sector that should be able to raise such an argument, since they have been included in almost every coalition since 1977, in stark contrast to the Arabs and secular left, for example.
why shas allowed themselves to be taken into this ideological quicksand is beyond me. more kissing up to the europeans?
ReplyDeleteRav Shteinman speech on Army draft
ReplyDeleteA good read from Rav Noygershal about the Haredim and their place in Israel:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kodeshbook.co.il/product.asp?productid=4756 למה הם שונים
So they're basically saying that even if a government mandate is GOOD for them, they won't do it because the secular Jews in the country initiated it? איזהו חכם
ReplyDeleteThe great Volozhin Yeshiva closed rather than incorporate Russian language studies mandated by the government. The talmidim dispersed and founded Yeshivos all over.
ReplyDeletethe Netziv actually kept Volozhin Yeshiva open and brought secular studies into the yeshiva, as per the governments requirement. it was a controversial decision, but he did it anyway. Only later, when the government kept adding more and more requirements did he close it. the straw that broke the camels back seems to have been when the government required all teachers of any subject to go get a college degree. the secular studies themselves were not the problem in Volozhin.
Delete