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Dec 8, 2014
Why Haredi women can't become MKs
I am going to ignore Mottka Bloi's comments about the request of the Haredi women to be included in the list for elections on Haredi parties. What he said is so disturbing that I don't think I even need to comment on it.
This is more interesting. Bloi is a violent (verbally) self-appointed askan who speaks in the name of the gedolim without asking them first. Benny Rabinovitz, on the other hand, is a fairly intelligent and reasonable person.
We all know the answer to the request will be "no", because the gedolim said so. At the end of the day that's what it comes down to, and that will be the answer. when Gafni said years ago that he'd be happy to include women, but no haredi woman wants to, he was not being serious - he was just avoiding dealing with the question. Look now when Haredi women are finally willing to publicly make the request, and see the automatic angry negative response without even considering the issue anew.
Benny Rabinovitz, as seen below, gives the basic arguments. The gedolim say no, it is against halacha. I'd like to know what halacha it is against. He compares it to women reading the torah and leading tefilla as chazzan in order to show that these women have an agenda, but he does not make the halachic connection - i.e. they dont ask to be chazzan because halacha is against it, but what halacha is against them serving in Knesset? what halacha allows women to become lawyers, secretaries, teachers, computer programmers, directors, bankers, accountants, CEOs, advisers to politicians and pretty much anything else they want, but not Members of Knesset specifically?
And, of course, any Haredi woman who would make such a request is not really Haredi, so Gafni's rule above is not overturned
This is more interesting. Bloi is a violent (verbally) self-appointed askan who speaks in the name of the gedolim without asking them first. Benny Rabinovitz, on the other hand, is a fairly intelligent and reasonable person.
We all know the answer to the request will be "no", because the gedolim said so. At the end of the day that's what it comes down to, and that will be the answer. when Gafni said years ago that he'd be happy to include women, but no haredi woman wants to, he was not being serious - he was just avoiding dealing with the question. Look now when Haredi women are finally willing to publicly make the request, and see the automatic angry negative response without even considering the issue anew.
Benny Rabinovitz, as seen below, gives the basic arguments. The gedolim say no, it is against halacha. I'd like to know what halacha it is against. He compares it to women reading the torah and leading tefilla as chazzan in order to show that these women have an agenda, but he does not make the halachic connection - i.e. they dont ask to be chazzan because halacha is against it, but what halacha is against them serving in Knesset? what halacha allows women to become lawyers, secretaries, teachers, computer programmers, directors, bankers, accountants, CEOs, advisers to politicians and pretty much anything else they want, but not Members of Knesset specifically?
And, of course, any Haredi woman who would make such a request is not really Haredi, so Gafni's rule above is not overturned
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You can ignore Mottka Bloi's comments but those women's children will be thrown out of school if they don't toe the line.
ReplyDeleteI thought her line about the iPhone was great- and he didn't respond.
ReplyDeleteI think there is an halacha that women cannot have position of power over the community. Rav Kook ruled that they can't vote. The psakim forbidding to vote are actually ignored, and here you can see the hypocrisy, since no religious party wants its political power to be cut in half.
ReplyDeleteDon't be so harsh on Rabinovitz for not knowing where in halacha it says that it's forbidden to have a woman be a member of Kennesset.
ReplyDeleteDid you see his briefly having to sit between two women (before abruptly getting up)?
It caused him to forget his Torah learning!
And he also didn't even know where it's written that sitting between two women is forbidden. (He forgot that it's not written anywhere, other than its being a reason for forgetting Torah learning.)
Igros moshe has a famous teshuva about women being in positions of authority, specifically a shul board. An extremely comprehensive treatment - http://text.rcarabbis.org/women-in-communal-leadership-positions-shul-presidents-by-aryeh-frimer/
ReplyDeletedo not think if there is a clear 'halakhic' source against - ayen erech Devora. But as many the MO contra the LITvish world likes to point out (methinks?) and rightfully so - Judasim is not about being a better robot in the following of specific set of rules but rather "What is Hashem asking from you?" (Dvarim Parshas Eikev) Where keeping the laws is one of the last things mentioned as keeping laws sans their function as a conduit to Ahava, Yirah etc. is quite useless l'maet the inherent minimum yirah such keeping presumably entails.
ReplyDeleteBut precedent of practice since Ma'amad Har Siani seems to speak pretty loudly that Jewish Society always viewed it a negative thing for a women to be in a position of power. Even one of the main exception's to this rule - Devora - castigates Barak for relying on her. and his not leading instead of her is a chisaron.
Furthermore Chazal point out Devora and Chulda both have names which connote negative things since insofar as these women were Nevios and obviously great persons their being female public figures cast upon them "stinging insect" and rodent qualities.
Those rabbis were so retro and chauvinist, no? ;-) tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek
why this is ? not now and "why" is not relevant really. what is relevant is that there is such a thing a Torah Hashkafa that does not always tranlate into a specific halakha. It is sufficient to see what the Torah's outlook is from clear aggadah or a clear knowlege of TNKH as well as how Jews have acted for thousands of years - the onus of proof is upon he who wants to shatter that hanhaga or chazoko. and of course to do such a thing one must first understand the reason for the hanhago in the first place.
which I am certain the proponents for women MK's a) do not know b) do not care
but really now, why would a women want to be a slimy MK...also, can you imagine having a female Eichler, Litzman Gafni? ycchhhh....
In any case - isn't there a chassidish women who won a seat on the Montreal City Something a coupla years back?
I agree in theory, but in reality our entire lifestyles are different, and one cant really point back to ancient times and say its always been bad so it is today as well. throughout history women, not just jewish but maybe especially jewish, were generally relegated to roles in the home,with exception, and did not become the main breadwinner. Nor were women running banks, becoming lawyers judges and doctors, or most other professions. In the past 50 or 70 years, suddenly women are no longer sent to the kitchen but they are as involved in general society as much as men are, and one could say by the haredi community they are so even more than the men are. so, one cant really, not without being disingenuous, say that changing the role to let women be outside in society, the main breadwinner, to get careeer fulfillment in almost any way possible and available, but then point to history and say there is still one thing they cant do just because
Delete1) being a public figure same thing as being a breadwinner?! As King George said to Barbossa "Hardly." And Ein Hochi Nami - ANY breadwinning position which involves a women being in the public eye is against the concept Chazal explicitly refer to in last weeks parshah.
ReplyDelete2) you know there has been a breakdown in morality regarding men/women relationships - pre-marriage celibacy is something which is mocked today. you know, I could probably make a strong halakhic argument permitting pre-marital physical relationships (with certain qualifications, if you learn the sugya) and the only thing that prevents us from being with the times is a strong tradition against znus. would you say - get with the times on that as well? (this isa moshol as to where your thinking leads...)
3) what do you mean by always "been bad"? what has been bad? whose yardstick are yo using to measure?
4) Before 1910 was anicent times??
1. women are far more than breadwinners today. they hold careers. They lead organizations. The run organizations. They are already very often public figures.
Delete2. if something is against halacha, then no. if something is not against halacha, you cannot change every aspect of the culture surrounding women except one and then claim tradition.
3. by "been bad" I just meant women were generally not in the pubnlic eye and it was considered inappropriate, but that doesnt mean the same perspective is relevant today - that it is inappropriate for women to be in the public eye and hold public positions.
4. in todays world where change happens so fats, 1920 is ancient
one more thing - career fullfillment?! Is that a Torah Concept as well?
ReplyDeleteparnoso - yes (and it is the man's responsibility), Career fulfillment? Let me be open with you: I don't think so. Yes one should try to pursue a n area of work that one enjoys etc. but that is a far cry from career fullfillment. A jew's career is his relationship w/ the One Who is Everywhere. and in this area of life which is the most important one to which all else is not even secondary, just necessary - there is indeed no le difference between what a women can achieve and the achievements of their male counterparts. the loshon of chazal is ten thousands upon ten thousands of NEVIIM and NEVIOT were in Israel note the unqualified comparison (even though l'dorot the public message was given durkh 48 men and only Seven women - whose recorded prophecies were oh so scant indeed.The only publicleader among them is Devorah and see first post about her.)
hmm. i just thought of this the only sefer of the 24 in Nakh named after a women is esther which we know means... v'hMayvin yovin
you sound kinda threatened from this - why?
Deletenot sure I understand where you coming from. please elaborate.
ReplyDeleteunless you really have nothing to say l'inyan so some vague personal negative innuendo would definitely serve you well here to delegtimize a message you do not like and you need not elaborate.
1. l'mai nafka mina. please reread post.
ReplyDelete2. was I not clear or u rehashing your mantra while ignoring what I wrote? you didn't really respond to my taanot at all.
3. a faux pas? again please reread what I wrote I think I addressed this. but I'll state my case with a new twist - m'hechi taisi that how the Jews acted and many maamorei Chazal indicate is not just 'cultural norms' but rather a basic tenet of Jewish living.
4. please elaborate.
5. This might be seen as persnoal but it is not really: Do you have a problem if Torah Values contradict currenttly
held axiom of the modern intellecual class?
I ask because to my thinking the Torah is not just a rulebook of Do's and don'ts it is a Toras Chayim as we say 'ki hem chayeinu' it is Divine and as such it trumps the latest trends of academia and pop culture. Avraham ha.....Ivri we never were all that popular. If you do not agree with that statement or are uncomfortable with it then we really are not talking to each other.
"one more thing - career fullfillment?! Is that a Torah Concept as well?"
ReplyDeleteSo let's assume the Charedi male MKs are in it for the same "career fulfillment" - why mock only the women? Personally I think some go into it for the power trip and others for the civil service, and most probably make it a combination of both.
"why would a women want to be a slimy MK...also, can you imagine having a female Eichler, Litzman Gafni? ycchhhh...."
Ok that's you're own opinion about the Charedi askanim that the Gedolim have appointed. And maybe you're right - and maybe for that reason the women think they can add something better to the picture. Ever watched Miri Regev, Tzipi Hotovely, Ayelet Shaked? (I'm sure you haven't because they are women ;-) ) They fulfill their civic duties with plenty of respect and honor.
"there has been a breakdown in morality regarding men/women relationships"
Yes - but who's to say only the women are to blame? Perhaps a component is that the men don't listen to the women nowadays, the men try very hard to put women "in their place" and as a result there is a backlash. To deal with the backlash by just slapping it down again is not a solution.
who is mocking? the point is to arbitrarily tear down Torah Living precedent because of some modern day psychosis called 'career fulfillment' ... please. If the men have fallen into this psychosis then that is too bad but they are not undermining anthing by doing so (except themselves). make sure you understand this before responding. politics and politicians stink but just like we need tanners and at one time sheperds - even thoguh Chazal say very bad thigns about them and some other vital professions - see end of Kiddushin - so tooo we need these boogers.
ReplyDeleteuhh.. you seem to be a true beleiver. Lenin liked guys like that. Miri Regev?! SHaked? Even Hotovely has been corrupted by the political game.
I guess you also think Bennet is a swelll guy and what he did to Mayroal candidate Aliza Lavi shows deep integrity. Just like his signing on (as with the Charlie's Angels mentioned above) to free the hundreds of terrorists did.
Hey when the right thing gets in the way of the power thing it is like a polish horse vs. a German Panzer.
right or wrong, one cannot expect that when women (or anyone) are sent to the workforce (in this case in order to support their husbands learning torah) they wont expect to also find fulfillment in their work as well as advancement. people want to be good at what they do, and they want to be recognized and rewarded for their hard work. you might not like the words career fulfillment, but it is the natural result of working. If it is such a bad thing, maybe they should have been taken into account when the community decided women should work and men [often] should not.
ReplyDelete