The reason for the ambivalence is one of convenience.
Ameican Chareidim love being able to visit Israel. They love the idea of all the kosher restaurants, sites they can tour, stuff they can buy, places they can learn. It's amazing for the Jewish people and it hasn't been this good in 1900 years.
On the other hand, there is the need to then admit that almost everything around them was built by non-religious Jews who reject everything they hold sacred, yet feel strongly about being Jewish.
Having been raised in a "Religious = good, secular = bad" atmosphere the "in-your-face" secular celebrations are an affront to that belief. There is so much good that Israel, despite all the shortcomings, has been able to accomplish for the religious Jewish population but it's galling to some to admit that it has been that way.

I dont question the ambivalence. American jews have their own things to worry about and to think about.

Being Israeli I would like to think Israel was higher on the list of priorities of American jews, but I know that daily life gets in the way and israel is not daily life for most people.

My question is about those who have moved here, to Israel, and really do love the country, but suddently around Yom Haatzmaut time they start talking as if they have been raised in Satmar.

Rafi,

As usual a though provoking and insightful posting.

The answer to your question is clear.

Peer pressure. School pressure. Social pressure. Fear of not being "accepted".

If these people would express their true feelings then their kids schoool standing, their shidduchim, etc. would now be put in question.

The psychological response is to become vocal in their "anti" feelings to show one and all that in spite of moving here they are not Zionist in the least.

I always chuckle when I see these same people at the Yom Ha'atzamut tekes at the Ulam HaSport with their children, enjoying the atmosphere,listening to music, etc. during SEFIRA!

If they don't hold of the medina and the nissim surrounding its creation where is the heter to celebrate? Do they say tachanun the next morning?

If their kid's yeshivos would only know!

IT is part of larger contradictions that american hareidim have. if they had stayed in the us, many of them would have sent their kids to high schools that have secular studies, or at a certain point the kid would have gone to community college and gotten a profession or something like that. here because they ID with a certain community, the kids go to heder, yeshiva ketana, yeshiva gedola, etc; a world of which their parents aren't part of. OK maybe some find a different path, but many don't.

they need to cut out their own pathway.

Very well said. It would interesting to hear from those who people who are against YH. Like you said one does not have to say hallel but one should recognized the day.

Kol tuv,

Baruch

IMHO, the problem is that most American Chareidim don't understand why we celebrate on Yom HaAtzma'ut, because most Chareidi rabbanim and mechanchim don't explain it to them.

For Torah-observant Jews, Yom HaAtzma'ut should be a day to give thanks to Hashem for the fact that any Jew who so desires can now live in Eretz Yisrael and fulfill the mitzvot hatluyot baAretz. It doesn't matter whether or not the State is "perfect" or "ideal".

If the Chareidi schools would teach this idea to their students, the ambivalence you describe would likely disappear...

The Curmudgeonly Israeli Giyoret says:

Thanks for your honesty, I guess.

I was not brought up Zionist either, although I clearly remember my religiously unaffiliated parents explaining to me (age 6) that it was a good thing that Israel had won the 6 Day War, that they were the good guys. There were lots of Arab countries, but only one Jewish state; the Israelis had sacrificed much so that there could be a state Jewsh refugees could come. Israeli values, I was told, were much the same as American, while Arab values were not.

I never though of visiting Israel before I got interested in converting; I never though of anyone leaving America to live in Israel until I came here to study shortly after my conversion. I stayed.

I was raised to believe that one owes a debt to one's country because it maintains a legal framework and protects on from foreign invaders. One is obligated to repay the debt by obedience to its laws, payment of taxes, and service in the military, if necessary. All the more so when one's country stands for liberty and justice. Avoiding these responsibilities was considered base and cowardly, the lowest form of ingratitude.

While I was investigating Judaism, I learned that there is no conflict between being a loyal citizen of a just state, and being a good Jew. I also learned that hakarat ha-tov, gratitude, is one of the most important middot, even in small things. I learned that self-fulfilment was generally fine, but that the good of the clal overrides the pleasures of the individual.

I think your summation of American and American-Israeli haredim is generally correct. I used to find this outrageous and perplexing, but now it mostly leaves me nauseous. English is my mother tongue too, but I will never understand these people the way I do Israelis.

Rafi,

I come from the same basic background as you - "American Yeshivish". I went to mainline non-Chasidish schools throughout elementary and high schools, and while my family was somewhat Zionistic, (an older sibling made Aliyah when I was in high school), Zionism wasn't at the top of my list. I decided to go to Israel for one year post-high school to see what it was about, with a firm plan to then come back and start college (night school - I planned on staying in Yeshiva during the day).

Well, "mentch tracht, un Gut lacht". Three years later, I finally came back to the US, planning on finishing my college education, getting married (though not necessarily in that order), and moving back to Israel. I didn't end up back quite as soon as I'd planned, but I did make it here eventually, and the family has not looked back.

Coming from the "Yeshiva world", I did notice the ambivalence toward Israel that you note. I think that for the most part, the reason for it is that in the Chareidi world, the opinions of great Rabbanim of previous generations is sacrosanct - it MUST be right, and it's practically impossible to change, and the vast majority of such Rabbonim (in Europe) opposed the concept of Zionism and the creation of the State of Israel. Opposing this is gradual recognition by many Chareidim who are able to think for themselves - including American Yeshivish - of the good that the State does, leading to a (sometimes grudging) appreciation and pride in the "Medina".

In general, such individuals are able to live with this internal conflict, as they have no outside force pushing them to one side or the other. The issue comes to a head, though, around Yom Ha'Atzma'ut, when they are being pressed by the public atmosphere to acknowledge Israel's positive aspects. Social pressure to avoid, Chas V'Shalom, being branded a Zionist (despite their internal Zioistic feelings) causes them to declare their fealty to the Chareidi party line and condemn Zionism.

It was this intelectual hypocricy that caused me to stop identifying with the Chareidi, even "American Chareidi", label, and to start calling myself just a Frum Jew; if pushed, I probably now would be considered more Torani than anything else (though I do continue to have great respect for Gedolim, regardless of their opinion). Do I think the State is perfect? Far from it. However, as I heard in the name of one Gadol (it may have been the Ponovizher Rav, though I could be wrong), "Some people argue whether the glass is half full or half empty. I'm just happy we have a glass!"

Happy Yom Ha'atzma'ut,

a proud Zionist in RBS A

Did you hear R. Malinowitz's shiur on Yom Haatzmaut?
Basically, if I remember correctly he believes strongly in Jews living in E.Y and building up the country, but he doesn't see the secular state as a positive thing. (He claims, that recent government policies prove that it was doomed to failure and the "majority" of the "gedolim" - who were against Zionism - were right.) Therefore, he is against saying Hallel on Y.H.A and he said that if people want they could do something to express appreciation for the building up of Jewish settlement in the land, but it doesn't specifically have to be done on Yom Haatzmaut, and if done that day should be done just because it is convenient e.g. off of work.

I didn't agree with his approach, but it was interesting to listen to.

Whether people were for or against founding the state under those particular condition with those particular people, is largely irrelevant once it is done. I think an open mind should be able to appreciate the magnitude of the miraculous kindness bestowed upon the Jewish people with the founding of the state, and the tremendous kiddush Hashem that it caused in the world. I think much of the world recognized that God had caused the Jewish people to succeed etc.

Was speaking to a madricha at a post-hs school here (draws from modern schools but gives the girls a "frum" push), and she said twice during the conversation that they're having a tiyul on YH "because we aren't allowed to have regular classes." I was so curious where this emphasis was coming from I was tempted to call the school director....

LOL, Anonymous 3:41. I, too, am so happy we have a glass! My family's life is infused with an appreciation of life in Israel and the government and army that allow for our existence here...but I don't think anyone has put it better than you just did.
Here's to the glass! L'Chaim!

anon - I dont need to argue it out. everyone can approach the day as they see fit. I refer in this post to people who are normally happy with Israel, and zionistic in a sense (even if not dati leumi), and proud of Israel, yet talk anti when it comes to Yom haatzmaut.

Regarding specifically that shiur, I dont know if the majority were against Israel. The one gadol who flat outright rejected it was mostly rejected by most other gedolim. While they might not have been comlpetely happy with the way it was done and definitely not by who was doing it, they accepted it as fact and decided it had to be dealt with and not just rejected.

YH is significant whether you like it or not. Even Neturei Karta recognizes that. Just because you are against a specific government policies does not mean YH loses significance.

And, as you say, Israel is a fact. Israel gives us all the opportunity to live here. Is it perfect? Obviously not, but what is? And even if not, does that mean it must be rejected?

Mrs. S - WONDERFUL EXPLANATION, which should be used and taught in Israel and in AMerica.

Enjoy the day in whatever way works for your avodas hashem.

Will be hanging my Blue/White flag on my porch in Flatbush, as a reminder to others that there is a MiddleEast country that is an ally living a miraculous existence.

people mught have say already what I am about to say but iI havent read all the comments so I dont know
I think that the root of this probleme is the fact that is Israel and specificly in the religious world everything works with stickers and groups.
and naturally somebody who is yeshivish in america, would want to be part of the charedy ,anti-sionnist world in israel.
so just propably in order to show that you really belong to the charedi world davka on yom haatsmaout you have to scream your hate for the state . because in fact the way you behave on yom haatsmaut will categorize you and stock you inside a group.
thats why of course beeing mode to hashem that He made us all thos miracles who allow us to be here today is a minor importance, its more important to make sure that you fit in.

To resolve your conflict
It should be noted that the name of HaSh-m does not appear in the Declaration of Independence.
We love Eretz Yisroel and are grateful for this wonderful gift. But a difference must be made the State of Israel and Eretz Yisroel.

@tzipschum - Thank you for your kind words, and happy Yom HaAtzma'ut to you and your family!

Eretz in the Lens,

HaShem's Name doesn't appear in the Megilla either yet it is full of Hashgocha Pratis and Nissim.

Do we "reject" Megillas Esther because of the absence of His Name?

Are the American Non-Jews better then us? They put G-d's name in their Declaration of Independence.
When the founders of the state drew up the Israeli Declaration of Independence they did not want to include HaSh-m's name for purely atheistic reasons. They said the 'rock of Israel'. The reason they gave was so everyone could interpret it as they want.
The reason HaSh-m's name was left out of Megillas Esther was that HaSh-m name should not be changed with that of a idol as the megilas was in Non-Jewish hands. This was for HaSh-m's Kavod.
By the way HaSh-m's name is found many time in Megillas Esther in a way that the Goyim cannot detect it. It is found Rosh and Sof Teves(head letters on end letters) in many places.

the argument is pointless. nobody disputes that 63 years ago when they founded the State, and for some time after, the leadership was anti-religious. They did horrendous things, and have been accused of even more horrendous things.

So we know what happened 60 years ago, 50 years ago and 70 years ago. Even today they are more considerate to religion but are for the most part not particularly as "jewish" or religiously friendly as we would like, to put it nicely.

But so what? That does not change the fact that we thank Hashem for the opportunity to be here. Why He chose them to be the ones to found the State I dont know. We can discuss theories.

Does any of that change the fact that today we can live in Eretz Yisrael fairly comfortably and the government sponsors much of the Torah learning that happens in Israel today?

Yes, we live here well, in spite of them and not because of them.
All the Chessed and nissim HaShem did and is doing for the Am shochen b'tzion is pure chessed on His part to build up the Torah nation after the Holocaust.
Yes we are grateful but only to
HaSh-m for giving us the gift of The Land.

There was a beautiful tekes and concert last evening in honor of Yom Ha'atzmaut.

It was wonderful to see the many different "colors" of our community and kippot of all materials and sizes.

It was also interesting to see how many kids were there with their parents enjoying the music, jumpy things and fireworks.

These same kids went off to cheder this morning. They were probably in cheder yesterday when in many cases the rebbe told them to ignore the siren as it is "for the goyim".These kids also know that we are in the midst of sefirat haomer when music, celebrating, etc. is assur (unless you subscribe to the hashkafa that Yom hatzmaut is a celebration of reishit tzmichat geula).

School, home,ulam hasport...very different and sometimes even conflicting messages.

Then we wonder why there are so many confused kids floating around.

If you send your kids to a certain type of school in order to "conform" and be accepted..kol hakavod. In such a case music and celebration is not in line with Sefira.

The bottom line is: Just be consistent in your hashkafos.

Your kids will thank you for it later!

The Curmudgeonly Israeli Giyoret says:

"When the founders of the state drew up the Israeli Declaration of Independence they did not want to include HaSh-m's name for purely atheistic reasons."

True enough. The atheists were a lot frummer then, or as Ben Gurion used to call it, "aduk". I can't imagine today' Israeli atheists bothering. We used to have a much better class of kofrim. Now THEY could argue...

The Rebbe loved Eretz Yisroel, even despite its skewed political issues.

Yechi HaMelech, Moshiach Now! Ad Masai?!!