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Jul 13, 2017
Interesting Psak: Guns N Roses concert attendance
Gun N Roses is coming back to Israel for another concert. The concert is scheduled for this Saturday night and was originally scheduled to begin shortly after the conclusion of Shabbos. Even though many religious fans would have had to come a little bit late to the concert, they got upset when GNR announced the concert was being lengthened to 3.5 hours and therefore advanced to begin at 8pm, while it is still Shabbos. Now, despite more concert time, the religious fans are missing a more significant part of the concert. After some complaining, GNR agreed to refund tickets for religious people who felt they could not participate.
But there is another problem.
Much, probably all, of the preparation for the concert is going to be done on Shabbos. Even though Axl Rose and Saul Hudson (Slash) are not Jewish, the people putting the event together are the Israelis in the production company hosting the performance. With all that chilul shabbos going on for the concert, is one allowed to attend, even after Shabbos?
Rav Benzion Algazi, head of the organization Tzurva mRabanan, responded to this query explaining that it is simple and clear that it is a problem to attend the concert. Because all the prep is being done for the people who bought tickets, the chilul shabbos is therefore being done for them specifically. Therefore it is prohibited to go to the concert, regardless of the fact that they will be beginning on Shabbos.
Can one sell his tickets to the concert? Rav Algazi says one could return the tickets to the box office for a refund, even though the tickets will be resold to other people, but one cannot sell the tickets directly to other people. That would be "lifnei eever" because by selling them the tickets they will be benefiting from the chilul shabbos of the concert.
source: Kipa
I find it interesting that not a word is mentioned of either the "Three Weeks" or the appropriateness of attending such a rock concert in the first place.
Regarding the Three Weeks, the rav is Sefardi, so Three Weeks is not an issue. Maybe an Ashkenazi rav would have related to this problem.
Regarding the appropriateness of the concert... I am no major prude but I am surprised the rav did not even relate to the issues of tzniyus, drugs, and everything else that goes along with the genre. Perhaps it is to his credit, knowing that people going are going anyway and talking about that would not change anything, but I am surprised because from my history and experience, the rabbonim I have always seen and heard would always have talked about this issue and raised it as a problem, whether or not people would listen.
But there is another problem.
Much, probably all, of the preparation for the concert is going to be done on Shabbos. Even though Axl Rose and Saul Hudson (Slash) are not Jewish, the people putting the event together are the Israelis in the production company hosting the performance. With all that chilul shabbos going on for the concert, is one allowed to attend, even after Shabbos?
Rav Benzion Algazi, head of the organization Tzurva mRabanan, responded to this query explaining that it is simple and clear that it is a problem to attend the concert. Because all the prep is being done for the people who bought tickets, the chilul shabbos is therefore being done for them specifically. Therefore it is prohibited to go to the concert, regardless of the fact that they will be beginning on Shabbos.
Can one sell his tickets to the concert? Rav Algazi says one could return the tickets to the box office for a refund, even though the tickets will be resold to other people, but one cannot sell the tickets directly to other people. That would be "lifnei eever" because by selling them the tickets they will be benefiting from the chilul shabbos of the concert.
source: Kipa
I find it interesting that not a word is mentioned of either the "Three Weeks" or the appropriateness of attending such a rock concert in the first place.
Regarding the Three Weeks, the rav is Sefardi, so Three Weeks is not an issue. Maybe an Ashkenazi rav would have related to this problem.
Regarding the appropriateness of the concert... I am no major prude but I am surprised the rav did not even relate to the issues of tzniyus, drugs, and everything else that goes along with the genre. Perhaps it is to his credit, knowing that people going are going anyway and talking about that would not change anything, but I am surprised because from my history and experience, the rabbonim I have always seen and heard would always have talked about this issue and raised it as a problem, whether or not people would listen.
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No worse than Meron on a Motzash.
ReplyDeleteI refrained from mentioning it
DeleteThe 3 weeks is an issue for Sepharadim re: music, so your question is still valid.
ReplyDeleteonly meat and music is shavua shechal bo?
DeleteAcc. to Rav Ovadia ZT"L and להבלח"א his sons:
DeleteMusic and Shehchiyanu is forbidden the 3 weeks. (Music for a Seudat Mitzva is permitted.)
Meat is forbidden the 9 days (the 9 days = the 2nd of Av until the entire 10th of Av although some are Mahmir on Rosh Hodesh too).
Shaving, showering, laundry, etc. is forbidden Shavu'a Shehal Bo.
Don't understand many of even the real rabbis of today who, at other times, would have spoken up no matter what; think many are afraid of saying anything in this sick political correctness bizzaro world. Who knows, their jobs, livlihoods and even lives could be in jeapordy. Nothing surprises anymore.
ReplyDeleteThere is a story about Rav Y.B. Soloveichik. An engaged couple, not very religious, were referred to him. He was a Cohen, she a divorcee. He could not prevail on them to break it up. He then asked the woman her name, and the man his mother's name. Turned out to be the same. So he told them that a great rabbi from the middle ages said that this is very bad luck for a marriage. They thought about it and broke up!
ReplyDeleteMoral of the story is, you can give someone a reason not to do something they will listen to, even if there are better reasons that they won't.
great story.
Deleteit reminds me of the story of the guy who put his milk in the work fridge and write on it "private" but someone kept using it up before he could. One day he wrote "chalav stam" and the nobody touched it and he could enjoy his own milk.
and it reminds me of the rabbi who said something to the effect of if only the zohar had written "lo tignov" instead of the torah, then everyone would keep it religiously
I don't think it's such a great story or lesson, even if it were true. Why couldn't they be trusted with the true prohibition? It's insulting to the intelligence of the couple to be given a false reason, even in order to achieve the same outcome. Let them hear the truth and decide how to deal with it.
DeleteWhat happens when they find out later that the "bad luck" reason was really not a reason at all? Fall back to the real cohen issue? This is an example of a lie subverting the validity of the truth.
There was no lying involved. R. Soloveichik started out discussing the Biblical prohibition of Cohen marrying a divorcee, but they were unpersuaded.
DeleteWhat he did mention to them that ultimately persuaded them is in the tsavaah of Rabbi Yehuda ha Chasid. There are many Ashkenazic families that are very particular not to violate it.
Even if lying were involved, though, it seems to be an OK thing to do.
DeleteI just tonight happened to be learning the gemara Pesahim 27a, wherein the Amora named Shemu'el switched around the authors of the 2 opinions of a Beraita to make the majority the stringent view in order for people to listen to the more stringent ruling which he held to be true even though the majority held the more lenient view.
When it comes to getting people to listen to a Psak, it seems that the ends justify the means.
This is a problem I can see, and it is true even in the Diaspora. There are many Saturday night concerts that begin before Shabbat ends, so I have resigned myself to the fact that I won't be able to go to Saturday night events before fall, especially when DST ends. Then when March comes, I have to resign myself to the fact that I have to do this again.
ReplyDeleteSo why couldn't they schedule the concerts to avoid Saturday nights in the summer? Interesting psak, and this should be taken into consideration in Israel when bands tour and should know about this conflict.
In the diaspora, in most cases, things are different. Most of the concert goers are not Jewish, and so the preparations are considered to be done for them.
DeleteYes, I know I'm a minority in the Diaspora. That doesn't mean that I don't want to go to events that I can't go to because the promoters don't consider the needs of those who can't conform to their schedule.
DeleteIf you can eat food cooked for you on Shabbat a certain amounr of time after Shabbat, why not go to a concert? The shabbat violations in this case are probably only Rabbinic.
ReplyDelete