Showing posts with label Otzar Beis Din. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Otzar Beis Din. Show all posts
Sep 24, 2015
OBD esrog rate differences
There is something I don't understand, and would like (serious, preferably) answers and explanations, if possible..
Most of the esrogim on the market this year are shmitta produce and are being sold through the Otzar Beis Din system.
Being sold through Otzar Beis Din means the esrogs have kedusha and have to be treated properly. More specifically, being sold through the OBD system means there is a uniform price for esrogim, as you are not paying for the esrog, rather for the labor costs involved - checking, transporting, packaging, etc.
So, my question is, why are vendors selling these OBD esrogim using different rates for the different levels.
Does it cost less for the kosher-level esrog to be checked and transported than for the aleph-aleph level esrog to be checked and transported? They only know what level each esrog is after it is checked anyway. It seems to me that all OBD esrogim, no matter the kashrut level rating, should be priced the same.
Can anybody explain to me please how this sytem works for esrogim?
Most of the esrogim on the market this year are shmitta produce and are being sold through the Otzar Beis Din system.
Being sold through Otzar Beis Din means the esrogs have kedusha and have to be treated properly. More specifically, being sold through the OBD system means there is a uniform price for esrogim, as you are not paying for the esrog, rather for the labor costs involved - checking, transporting, packaging, etc.
So, my question is, why are vendors selling these OBD esrogim using different rates for the different levels.
Does it cost less for the kosher-level esrog to be checked and transported than for the aleph-aleph level esrog to be checked and transported? They only know what level each esrog is after it is checked anyway. It seems to me that all OBD esrogim, no matter the kashrut level rating, should be priced the same.
Can anybody explain to me please how this sytem works for esrogim?
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Oct 15, 2008
What a lulav!
As a postscript to my post on the esrogim and lulavim, I feel it worthwhile to mention this -
My brother in law has become a very serious "brisker". He is overly pedantic about his lulav and esrog, and spent three days looking around Yerushalayim for a lulav that would be satisfactory to his requirements. He could not find one. A couple hours before yom tov he calls me up to ask me if the lulavs I got were good and if there is a rav locally he could show them to. If not, he could not come for yom tov, because he did not yet have a lulav and would need to continue looking and would not have time to come.
I said I dont know about a rav - he can try goign to the house of any rav if he wants, but an hour before yom tov is not very promising on that. I said I would look at the lulavim and give him my opinion. I looked and told him that the lulavim I got from the shul all look great, but I did not know if they would look great to him.
he said ok, and came anyway.
He took a lulav and went to shul in the morning. He showed the lulav to the rav of the shul he davened in (different shul than where I had bought them), and the rav was very impressed with the lulav and told him it is a beautiful lulav and asked him where he bought it.
So despite my not understanding the costs involved and generally not wanting to pay so much for the 4 species, the quality of the esrogim and lulavim from the supplier for the shul was extremely high and was likely to be considerably cheaper than what he would charge for these in other years.
My brother in law has become a very serious "brisker". He is overly pedantic about his lulav and esrog, and spent three days looking around Yerushalayim for a lulav that would be satisfactory to his requirements. He could not find one. A couple hours before yom tov he calls me up to ask me if the lulavs I got were good and if there is a rav locally he could show them to. If not, he could not come for yom tov, because he did not yet have a lulav and would need to continue looking and would not have time to come.
I said I dont know about a rav - he can try goign to the house of any rav if he wants, but an hour before yom tov is not very promising on that. I said I would look at the lulavim and give him my opinion. I looked and told him that the lulavim I got from the shul all look great, but I did not know if they would look great to him.
he said ok, and came anyway.
He took a lulav and went to shul in the morning. He showed the lulav to the rav of the shul he davened in (different shul than where I had bought them), and the rav was very impressed with the lulav and told him it is a beautiful lulav and asked him where he bought it.
So despite my not understanding the costs involved and generally not wanting to pay so much for the 4 species, the quality of the esrogim and lulavim from the supplier for the shul was extremely high and was likely to be considerably cheaper than what he would charge for these in other years.
Oct 13, 2008
Shmitta: Otzar Beis Din: distributing Esrogim
Normally I buy an esrog in a closed box. My theory is that I have little patience to look at esrogim that tens or hundreds of people have already handled and rejected. As well, I hardly know what I am looking at. All the marks look the same to me, so there is no point in my inspecting it the way I see plenty of other people inspecting. I figure, if a hechsher is good enough for me to rely upon for the food I buy, for deciding Jewishness, conversions and marriage, even for my laundry detergent, bleach, and paper plates, then it is also good enough to tell me my esrog is kosher.
So instead of my inspecting the esrog just to look as frum as everyone else (which is the only reason I personally could ever have to inspect an esrog closely), I buy the closed box with the hechsher. The most inspecting I do is for where it is being sold cheaper. I see no reason to pay a hundred shekels for an esrog when I can pay 40 for the same thing. Granted, I am no big negotiator, and I am never good at bringing merchants prices down on anything, but if I wait until the prices naturally start to go down, I have saved myself a lot of money.
Also, I will generally go to buy the esrog on erev yom tov when the prices start to go down. I am not quite daring enough to wait until very late in the day, when you can really get prices at the rock-bottom, but I do ghet them as they are beginning to fall.
This year, buying esrogim and the other items are a bit more complicated. Because the esrogim still fall in the category of shmitta, because fruit still has shmitta restrictions for a few more months even though Rosh Hashana has come and gone, so you cannot just go buy an esrog. You can go, or you could have gone before Rosh Hashana, to a hefker field and pick your own esrog. the chances of you getting a kosher one like that are extremely small.
The main source for esrogim this year are Otzar Beis Din. The "legal fiction" is that they say they are "distributing" esrogim and not selling them. I don't know - these guys who were "distributing" them at our shul for a nice price did not look like they would be doing it just to cover their costs. They must have somehow been sellign them for a decent profit. Otherwise why would they go through the effort of sellign them in RBS, or anywhere for the matter?
bluke at The Jewish Worker has a good review of how the details of buying Otzar Beis Din esrogim works halachically.
Not everyone, Rav Elyashiv is supposedly included in this list, likes or agrees with the Otzar Beis Din solution, so there is also a supply of imported esrogim. While the Otzar Beis Din prices are set pretty much in stone, the sky is the limit with the prices for imported esrogim.
My shul made arrangements with a supplier to sell Otzar Beis Din esrogim, and lulavim and hadasim (they do not have the same shmitta restrictions for various reasons). Because of the short amunt of time due to the way the calendar falls out, and due to the complexity of buying shmitta esrogim, and due to some other technical issues, I decided to buy through the shul this year. I paid higher prices for my species than I would in a normal year, but I am told that the quality is so nice (they are very nice, but as I said, I am not a big mumche and it doe snot make such a difference to me), it is cheap to what I would have had to pay for an equivalent esrog in any other year. Not that I would have bought such a nice esrog any other year, but I guess it is somehow a good deal.
I still find it hard to understand how when shmitta means everything is supposed to be free, and the Otzar Beis Din system means they charge for the costs, why things are so expensive. they say they are just covering the costs, but it seems the costs are so much higher than in regular years. And not just for esrogs. Otzar Beis Din vegetables (when they were available) during the year were also expensive. Why does it cost more to pick a cucumber and send it to the "store" during shmitta than it does the other six years?
Anyways, that is the system in place and that is how I got my beautiful esrog this year.
the one drawback is that you cannot just put the esrog in the "pach shmitta" and let it rot and throw it out. You have to wait a few months, savig it in good condition the whole time. Eventually you have to remove it and make it hefker when the "zman bi'ur" arrives. And then you can get rid of it.
So instead of my inspecting the esrog just to look as frum as everyone else (which is the only reason I personally could ever have to inspect an esrog closely), I buy the closed box with the hechsher. The most inspecting I do is for where it is being sold cheaper. I see no reason to pay a hundred shekels for an esrog when I can pay 40 for the same thing. Granted, I am no big negotiator, and I am never good at bringing merchants prices down on anything, but if I wait until the prices naturally start to go down, I have saved myself a lot of money.
Also, I will generally go to buy the esrog on erev yom tov when the prices start to go down. I am not quite daring enough to wait until very late in the day, when you can really get prices at the rock-bottom, but I do ghet them as they are beginning to fall.
This year, buying esrogim and the other items are a bit more complicated. Because the esrogim still fall in the category of shmitta, because fruit still has shmitta restrictions for a few more months even though Rosh Hashana has come and gone, so you cannot just go buy an esrog. You can go, or you could have gone before Rosh Hashana, to a hefker field and pick your own esrog. the chances of you getting a kosher one like that are extremely small.
The main source for esrogim this year are Otzar Beis Din. The "legal fiction" is that they say they are "distributing" esrogim and not selling them. I don't know - these guys who were "distributing" them at our shul for a nice price did not look like they would be doing it just to cover their costs. They must have somehow been sellign them for a decent profit. Otherwise why would they go through the effort of sellign them in RBS, or anywhere for the matter?
bluke at The Jewish Worker has a good review of how the details of buying Otzar Beis Din esrogim works halachically.
Not everyone, Rav Elyashiv is supposedly included in this list, likes or agrees with the Otzar Beis Din solution, so there is also a supply of imported esrogim. While the Otzar Beis Din prices are set pretty much in stone, the sky is the limit with the prices for imported esrogim.
My shul made arrangements with a supplier to sell Otzar Beis Din esrogim, and lulavim and hadasim (they do not have the same shmitta restrictions for various reasons). Because of the short amunt of time due to the way the calendar falls out, and due to the complexity of buying shmitta esrogim, and due to some other technical issues, I decided to buy through the shul this year. I paid higher prices for my species than I would in a normal year, but I am told that the quality is so nice (they are very nice, but as I said, I am not a big mumche and it doe snot make such a difference to me), it is cheap to what I would have had to pay for an equivalent esrog in any other year. Not that I would have bought such a nice esrog any other year, but I guess it is somehow a good deal.
I still find it hard to understand how when shmitta means everything is supposed to be free, and the Otzar Beis Din system means they charge for the costs, why things are so expensive. they say they are just covering the costs, but it seems the costs are so much higher than in regular years. And not just for esrogs. Otzar Beis Din vegetables (when they were available) during the year were also expensive. Why does it cost more to pick a cucumber and send it to the "store" during shmitta than it does the other six years?
Anyways, that is the system in place and that is how I got my beautiful esrog this year.
the one drawback is that you cannot just put the esrog in the "pach shmitta" and let it rot and throw it out. You have to wait a few months, savig it in good condition the whole time. Eventually you have to remove it and make it hefker when the "zman bi'ur" arrives. And then you can get rid of it.
May 16, 2008
Shmitta: Gogo'im
Gogo'im. Otherwise known as "Apricot Seeds".
As we begin making our way through the summer months, we now begin to find all sorts of fruits in the stores that are coming into season. That includes "mishmish", or Apricot.
Kids in Israel love apricots. Not because they love the fruit itself, which they do, but more so because of the pit inside. The apricot pit, known in Hebrew as Gogo, is removed from the apricot by the kids and then recycled into use.
the Gogo is collected by the hundreds and thousands. It is used in games, it is used to barter and to purchase things. We have all heard the stories about the kid who sold his bike to another kid for 10,000 Gogo'im!
So I am in the supermarket yesterday and see they have apricot. So I pack up a bag. Then I notice the sign says these apricots are Otzar Beis Din produce.
That of course means they have kedushas sheviis - holiness of shmitta, and have to be treated appropriately with care.
So that raises a dilemma. Are the kids allowed to play with the Gogo'im, or is that considered to be treating it with disrespect.
I considered the following options:
- They are not holy (because they are not food, rather waste).
- This is not considered disrespectful because this is considered a normal use.
- They are holy and kids cannot play with them.
So, let the games begin!
Oct 30, 2007
Shmitta: Otzar Beis Din
In my initial post on shmitta I described Otzar Ha'Aretz as OBD.
In reality, Otzar Ha'Aretz is one form of OBD. It is just one (of numerous) organization running a version of OBD.
OBD is a system by which, more or less, Beis Din takes control of the produce growing in a field. They then hire the farmer to harvest the produce and they deliver and distribute the produce. When you buy OBD produce, you are not paying for the vegetables, which are in essence free, rather you are paying for the expenses the Beis Din incurs in the process of getting you your cucumbers. Technically the OBD produce should be cheaper than normal, but sometimes the Beis Din has inefficiencies (after all they are no in the vegetable selling business) which lead to higher costs, along with the extra expenses of more mashgichim and other various expenses.
The vegetables sold under the OBD system have limitations. First of all, they are limited by amounts. There is an additional issue by vegetables that they need to be replanted every year. That is prohibited in the shmitta year. If vegetables are planted in the shmitta year they are prohibited from being eaten. The issur is known as the issur of sefichin.
The fact that one cannot plant veggies in the shmitta year means any veggies being sold under the OBD system are remaining from plantings that took place in the 6th year, and they only finished growing and were harvested in the shmitta year.
That means, these veggies run out and will not be available as soon as that 6 year crop is finished. vegetables (at least "greens" such as cuces, tomatoes, lettuce, etc.) do not have much of a shelf life and therefore cannot be stored for months in storage to be used during shmitta. They are picked and sold. As soon as all the 6th year produce is finished being picked, that is it. There is no more planting and no more vegetables (under this system).
(disclaimer: by 6th year produce I am referring here to the produce planted in 6th year and harvested in 7th year. I am not referring to the classical 6th year produce being sold in the stores that are sold from storage, such as potatoes, carrots, etc.)
I have tables detailing the various vegetables and when they are expected to run out of 6th year produce and the issur of sefichin would begin.
Once this happens, a person eating OBD veggies will have to find another source. He will either buy veggies imported from Europe (there is very little of this available and the costs are fairly high and restrictive), from Arab produce (another post will discuss this issue), from hetter mechira, or refrain from eating vegetables.
Most vegetables will be completing this cycle and no longer be available under OBD right about now (within the next couple of weeks for the most part).
What will I do about eating veggies? I am not yet sure.
Vegetables consumed under this OBD system have to be treated with respect and holiness of shmitta.
That means one cannot waste them. Peels and waste cannot be disposed of in the regular garbage can because their spoiling process is being hastened by mixing with other spoiling food.
One must keep the waste of OBD veggies separate and allow them to spoil on their own. Once they are considered spoiled you can then throw them into the regular garbage.
Many people have a pach shmitta (special garbage can only for shmitta produce). We never bothered buying a separate can, but keep the peels and waste in a bag which we put into a large jar. We add bags of peels and remove older bags of peels as necessary.
There is a debate among the rishonim whether there is an actual mitzva to eat produce of shmitta. Some say yes and some say no (like by anything else in Judaism). But regardless of whether there is an actual mitzva, everybody agrees that the preference and ideal of the Torah is to be eating such produce. The passuk says so very clearly that this produce should be eaten (unless one says it was just a reality as markets back then were not global and if you did not eat this produce you would have nothing else to eat as you could not import from other places).
Many people prefer to not eat OBD produce. They say that the restrictions on it are too difficult to deal with. They do not know what to do with the peels, what happens if you throw something out by mistake, how can you stop the kids from wasting the food, and all sorts of other issues that make it difficult to deal with OBD produce. They say it is easier and simpler to just buy non-shmitta produce (a.k.a. Arab produce) and not have to worry about all that.
On the one hand, there is a debate and differing customs on whether Arab produce (grown in Israel) is free from these restrictions. Some people say these restrictions apply equally on Arab produce. Clearly these people are not going to prefer Arab produce to solve the difficulties, as they have not solved anything.
They will be buyinh Arab produce mostly because of availability. OBD is very limited, as I mentioned above, and stops about 6-8 weeks into shmitta, while Arab produce is always readily available.
Regardless, most people do not keep the same restrictions on Arab produce and buy Arab produce because of a) availability and b) no restrictions.
The restrictions on what can be done with shmitta produce do make it difficult. One has to know what to do, and must have a Rabbi available to call when a question arises that he does not know the answer to. However, we have not found it so difficult that we find a reason to not use such produce.
It has been a learning experience for us. My kids know to ask if the cucumbers (or whatever) have kedushas shviis. They know that if the answer is yes that means they take smaller portions so as to minimize the waste.
Just last night I served at dinner a plate of cut up, lightly salted cucumbers (which my kids love). As my son reached out with his hands to grab a bunch (no, shmitta does not help in teaching kids to eat with forks and having manners. that is a separate work in progress) he turned to me and asked if they have kedusha. When I responded in the affirmative, he took less than he had planned to take and when he finished with what he took, he then took more.
It does create some difficult scenarios. Like when my daughter was making a salad and forgot the vegetables had kedusha. It just slipped her mind. She knew when she took them out, but she got distracted and forgot. She threw the peels into the garbage by mistake and she realized right afterwards. She and her uncle (who was there at the time) had to root around in the garbage and extract the peels. It was not so bad as they were mostly piled together, but it was still uncomfortable.
One more thing worth noting: I do not know how long in a regular year the produce is held in storage before it is sold in the stores. I do know that the cucumbers and peppers I purchased from OBD almost 2 weeks ago (and am running out of) are still fresh in my refrigerator. They are firm and of good quality. In a regular year, 3-4 days after I buy the cucumbers they are already soft and beginning to get mushy. Another day or two and they start getting moldy. I do not know if that means in a regular year they store it for longer before they sell it, or if it is grown lower quality, but the OBD produce I have bought has been far superior in that regard.
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