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Dec 20, 2023
Interesting Psak: Overcrowded buses
According to Kikar, Rav Yitzchak Zilbershtein, rav of Ramat Elchonon neighbrohood of Bnei Braq, was asked an old question that was famously discussed by Rav Moshe Feinstein.
A teacher in a Haredi seminar asked Rav Zilbershtein about how to handle the bus situation. The buses are very crowded in the morning and evening when men go to kollel, yeshiva and seminary students go to learn, kids go to school, teachers go to teach.. There are not enough buses on the lines, so the ones that do run are very crowded at the busy hours of the day.
The issue with this is, it is so crowded it can lead to breaches of tzniyus, men and women touching as the bus hurtles forward, brakes, jerks around turns, etc.
While they have approached the askanim to arrange more buses at the busy hours, until then, what should one do about this situation? As long as the situation stays the same is one even allowed to travel on these buses?
Rav Zilbershtein responded that Rav Moshe Feinstein related to a similar question in New York on public transportation and had paskened that such contact is not intentional and is not categorized as touching of any intimacy or desire and is not even prohibited on a rabbinic level, so one could ride on a crowded subway train or bus, even knowing that at times it will cause people to touch.
Rav Zilbershtein continues and says that today's situation is different than the one Rav Moshe related to back then. In Rav Moshe's time he was talking about married men going to work, they were not interested in the other women. Additionally they were traveling distances that could not be accomplished by walking as an alternative. Today's situation being asked about is different as it involved young men and women going to yeshiva and seminary. At such a young age they have desires and their "yetzer" burns inside like a fire, and it will definitely cause improper thoughts.
Ergo, Rav Zilbershtein paskened, if a bus is overcrowded and one cannot travel with men and women separated as would be proper, even Rav Moshe would agree that one cannot alight such a bus - neither men nor women. How can one begin his or her day and succeed in learning when he or she travels without kedusha! Additionally, usually the distance involved is not so great and walking is a viable alternative, so the bus in such a situation is unacceptable.
Rav Zilbershtein added that nowadays with a situation of danger, it is even worse, because the care for tzniyus protects us. Lessening the kedusha leaves us exposed to the dangers.
I guess that is one way to relieve the buses of being overcrowded.. if the other methods dont work...
I do wonder about the statement that married men have no yetzer and do not have such thoughts or interests in the women around them. I wonder if Rav Moshe would have agreed to such a distinction.
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I recall learning that teshuvah and Rav Moshe's position was: Dude, if you're going to get turned on because, due to crowding, you brushed against a woman, stay home. It's too dangerous for you to go outside.
ReplyDeletelol well said!
DeleteDangerous for whom?
DeleteI really have a problem with the way many poskim quote a Posek from a previous generation and say something like "Even though he says exactly the opposite of what I am going to say, if he knew the details of this situation he would agree with me".
ReplyDeleteIt is legitimate for a Posek to disagree with a different posek or to explain that the details of one situation are different from the details in the question posed by the other posek. But how can they say definitively that the Posek of a previous generation would agree with them.
Couldn't Rav Zilbershtein have just said "although Rav Moshe permitted a this in a similar situation, I disagree with his ruling based on my understanding of the following sources..."
Or "Although Rav Moshe made a ruling about the NY Subway, this is different from Israeli busses because ...., and therefore we do not know what Rav Moshe would have said about this situation"
On what basis can he that "even Rav Moshe would agree that one cannot alight such a bus" - is there another ruling by Rav Moshe that would back this up? If so, why didn't he quote it. If not, who gave him authority to speak in the name of Rav Moshe.
I hear that
DeleteNote also, it's always used legitimately to take a machmir position. But if you disagree to take a meikil position suddenly the logic is not acceptable . We move down the generations smowballing chumras and now we are on the hook for everything. But hey, look at the bright side : we are better off now than in another generation ;)
DeleteThere's a real fear of disagreeing, even with near-contemporaries. There were those infamous events, involving R' Moshe in fact, when old manuscripts from accepted authorities were found which expressed "unusual" views. Rather than say, "Well, our view is different," instead the contemporary gedolim felt compelled to claim that the manuscripts *must* be forgeries.
DeleteAnd much of the Gemara, by the way, is the Amoraim trying to reconcile opinions of Tanaaim who clearly simply disagree with each other.
@ Smash Kernel....yep everything is about chumra creep.
DeleteIt is crucial for some Gedolim to act as if all of them agree and it was just different circumstances that led to an older, different psak. Otherwise you have the guy with new chumrah being told "Fine, but I'm holding like the older guy".
ReplyDeleteAnd given his history, there's got to be some insecurity to Rav Zilbershtein's paskening. Remember how many of his teshuvos end with "And then I showed Rav Eliashiv/Rav Kanievsky and they suggested something totally different".