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Jun 25, 2009

Where is the Chillul Shabbos?

In light of the decision by Mayor Nir Barkat to open the Safra parking lot this Shabbos, by using a non-Jew to run it and allow parking free of charge, I have a question for those who are disturbed by the chillul shabbos mandated by the City of Jerusalem.

What is the chillul shabbos? The secular Jews and non-Jewish tourists are driving anyway. This is simply allowing them to park "here" instead of "there". Do the Eidah people demonstrate every time someone in their neighborhood uses a shabbos goy to turn on the lights or airconditioner?

Perhaps using a shabbos goy to operate a free parking lot is not ideal, but where is the chillul shabbos that deserves such strong protest?

Please explain this to me. I too am against chillul shabbos and wish everyone in Jerusalem and every other city would keep shabbos, but where in this case is the chuillul shabbos that needs to be protested?

And while on the topic, one of the reasons given for the protesting is because they claim the secular are breaking the [famous] "status quo" of religious-secular relations.

On the issue of the status quo I would like to know what was included in the original status quo? What can and cannot be done based on the status quo? Do only the secular have to keep the status quo? Are the religious taking over secular neighborhoods not breaking the status quo? When they fight to put up their eruvs, mikvas and shuls in traditionally secular neighborhoods like Kiryat HaYoverl and Bet HaKerem, is that not breaking the status quo?

Please explain.

65 comments:

  1. It is very naive to believe that the demos are anything to do with chillul shabbos. They are all about power games and showing the mayor who really has the clout in J'lm.
    If it wasn't the car park, it would have been some other issue, major or minor, that they would have used as an excuse to make a fuss.
    Also, remember it's the summer and they always overheat in the hot sun and have a riot to 'let off steam', the reason is irrelevant.

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  2. Plenty Chilul Shabbat (as well as Chilul HaShem).

    Throwing stones (which are Muktze) is Chilil Shabbat

    Getting police officers to break up a riot is Chilul Shabbat

    Casuing an event which you know is going to bring in media is a Chilul Shabbat.

    Dragging people away from their families and Shabbat learning for a demonstrations could arguably be defined as Chilul Shabbat.

    Unfortunately, these actions were all performed by the people who identify themselves as "Religious"

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  3. By sitting back and letting the parking lot operate, the Eida (and every other Jew for that matter) is giving an "ishur" to Chillul Shabbos, which is unacceptable.

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  4. The protests are against public condoning of chilul shabbat.
    The iriya is saying, that's fine if you drive. We're happy to see you. In fact, better you drive here than anywhere else. Of course, we would never do it ourselves, but for you, well, just let us know how we can help.
    That is Chillul Hashem ans encouraging of chillul shabbat.
    It is not acceptable to drive here or anywhere else, and we will not be a party to it.

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  5. Anonymous, did you ever join a protest against the slaughtering in Darfur? No? Then you're giving it an ishur, right?

    Hamsig, then why not close every street in the entire city? Like it or not, there are m'chalelei Shabbos in Yrslm. Like it or not, we do not have a beis din with authority to to legislate Shmiras HaMitzvos. It's a secular city govt. How does that make YOU a party to it?

    I would agree if this were happening in an all-frum neighborhood. That would be very insensitive to the residents there. But this parking lot is not in an all-frum neighborhood. So yes, better there than somewhere else.

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  6. Not closing a street is a "passive" action.

    Opening a special parking lot is an "active" action that may encourage some to drive into town/Jerusalem, where otherwise they might not have.

    If you owned a private parking lot, would you hire a goy so it may run on Shabbat?

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  7. Rafi, this was exactly the setup two weeks ago- it was being run by a non Jew and no money is exchanged. Exactly nothing has changed.

    I think the smarter thing on the part of the city would have been to open the Karta parking lot,next to Mamilla rather than the safra, which abuts Geula or MS or something.

    other than that, this protest is pure narishkeit.

    Abbi

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  8. This is a sanctioned approval of Chilul Shabbat by the municipality, plain and simple.

    As to Darfur, who represents me that sanctions the killings there? Kindly point him/her/them out.

    Furthermore, why limit ourselves to Darfur? N. Korea. Nigeria, China, Tibet, Kurds, yada, yada.

    The answer is because you know in advance that your influence there is irrelevant and you've got your own problems closer to home to deal with, where there's a stronger chance of making a change.

    You mean you didn't know that?

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  9. No, because it if were MY parking lot, then it would be ME who's party to chilul Shabbos. But that's just the point. Hamasig said "We will not be party to it." Well guess, what, we aren't.

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  10. Shy, my point about Darfur was in response to Anon 1 who said that by not joining in the protest, WE are giving an ishur to chilul Shabbos. On that I disagree. As you said, it is sanctioned by the municipality, not us.

    The iryah has a delicate balancing act of accommodating all the residents of the city. They made efforts to reduce the chilul Shabbos by putting a non-Jew there and making it free. That at least displays an effort. Maybe we should recognize that instead of throwing it back in their face. Why is it always all or nothing with us? Why should they even bother trying to accommodate us at all if we're NEVER satisfied, no matter what they do? Tafasta meruba lo tafasta.

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  11. not G.

    This is not about religious sensitivities and neither is it really about power. It is about being.

    These haredi hooligan idiots (that is idiots who are hooligans who are haredi - I am not not saying that haredim are hooligans or idiots; most are patently not) are constantly looking for something to protest about, because if they stop protesting then they lose their raison d'etre. They will cease to exist.

    These are totally pathetic individuals. Without continually searching for new humrot to adopt or new hiloni disgraces to protest, their lives would become devoid of meaning.

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  12. Rafi (not G)

    It will be hard for you to appear reasonable if you claim that the Beit Din of the Eida Chareidit are a bunch of idiot hooligans who will cease to exist if they're not potesting.

    Do you know anything about the Eida?

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  13. If i lived in yerushalayim I would send my husband and if i had big boys I would send them also to protest, i would be very proud to be a part of it
    I think that It's a bigger chillul hashem not to protest.+

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  14. this is just hooliganism plain and simple. no actual chilul shabbos is caused by this. the edah is trying to flex its growing political muscle & they are no better than stam football hooligans.
    apparently the "fun" has already begun as the 417 bus to Jerusalem was stoned by a group of kids on nahar hayarden this afternoon.

    אחד שוגג ואחד מזיד בחילול השם

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  15. The only additional Chilul Shabbos being done here is by the Chareidim. On top of that you have a huge Chilul Hashem.

    As a practical matter, the parking lot will mostly likely *reduce* Chilul Shabbos by the drivers as they spend less time looking for parking spots.

    However, this has very little to do with Chilul Shabbos. I was in Jerusalem for Shabbos a couple of weeks ago, and there was a steady flow of cars all around. The Chareidim didn't seem to care.

    This is about a bunch immature zealots peeing on their turf like dogs.

    It's about a bunch of children who can't accept that their guy didn't win.

    It's also actually about fund raising. Since many of these low-lives have no income and stupidly don't take money from the government they need to raise money from overseas. It's important that they "show results" to their benefactors every once in a while.

    And here's a tad of irony. They claim to object to the fact that this is state-sanctioned Chilul Shabbos. But they don't believe in the state or that it in any represents Judaism!

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  16. The Safra parking lot is under the Municipality and part of the Municipal complex. As such it was never open on the Sabbath, just as the municipality was never opened on the Sabbath. That's the problem.

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  17. cosmic - they have said the same protests will take place if an alternate lot is opened - karta instead of safra.

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  18. Hamasig. It is hard for you to seem reasonable if you cannot explain what it is that this riot is about. What are the objectives? Why this target for protest? How will the objectives be reached? What will be changed? How will hillul shabbat in Jerusalem be reduced as a result? Will the protest and its results cause a kiddush hashem or a hillul hashem? Will it cause anyone to do teshuva? Will God and his Torah be better off or worse off as a result? Will more people value or observe shabbat?

    Where is the Eida on tax evasion (gezel harabim), immoral work practices, unfair treatment of workers, issur lo tehonem, smoking, dangerous car driving, sexual assault, milhemet mizva (lehazil yisrael miyad zar)? Do they really care that the vast majority of Jews in this country and all across the world know and care so little for their heritage? What exactly are they doing about it? Why is it they regularly bring out raucous crowds to defend the honor of shabbat but not of their fellow Jews who are assaulted by people from within their midst?

    So far I have not seen anything that disproves my theory that the protest is a knee-jerk "I protest therefore I am" reaction.

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  19. ad mosai lEdah haRo'oh hazos.

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  20. they now say that rav eliyashiv also calls for the tzibbur to join in the kabbalos shabbos davening.
    he would probably know about the balances of chillu hashem/ chilul shabbos, etc. at least as much as internet blog commentators.
    but then again there is always the answer that the young twenty five year old askanim forced the ninety-nine year old Adam Gadol into agreeing.

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  21. Cosmic, as Rafi (the real Rafi) pointed out the protest is over any parking lot, not just the open in Safrah.

    What you meant to say is that the argument is because the Iriya is providing free parking with a goy in attendance as a solution for hilonim and goyim who for some reason feel the need to come to Ir HaKodesh on shabbat.

    Let's assume that for most of them, the only thing that would bring them to central Jm on a shabbat would be some kind of religious experience that they are unlikely to have till their next bar mitzva, shabbat hatan or whatever.

    Let's also assume that they are likely to come by car whether you give them parking or not.

    Let's also assume that if there is no parking in central Jm they will either park illegally after driving round and round fruitlessly or take a taxi from further out (maybe driven by a yid). They may also park in an Arab parking lot that pays tithes to the Hamas.

    Now can you please just explain how this protest is going to lessen hillul shabbat and is not just a mis-placed communal ego trip.

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  22. "he would probably know about the balances of chillu hashem/ chilul shabbos, etc."

    Do you really think Rav Elyashiv knows the whole story. Do you think he'd approve of throwing rocks, dirty diapers at other Jews? Do you think think they're telling him how the world sees what these cretins do and how it shames Judaism and Hashem? I don't he's been told about the details of the situation and how careful the Mayor was not to cause additional Chilul Shabbos.

    When you can tell me that he's aware of all of this, then you can talk.

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  23. Do you really think Rav Elyashiv knows the whole story.

    Yes

    Do you think he'd approve of throwing rocks, dirty diapers at other Jews?

    Can you provide a reliable source that any of this took place?

    Do you think think they're telling him how the world sees

    I think he knows. He's been around a while, and he knows how these things go.

    what these cretins do and how it shames Judaism and Hashem?

    Your opinion.

    I don't he's been told about the details of the situation and how careful the Mayor was not to cause additional Chilul Shabbos.

    Why not? I sure he's aware.

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  24. Rafi G. and Rafi,

    If we're talking about a private parking lot, why is the municipality involved? Who owns the Karta lot? I must admit that I'm confused.

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  25. Hamasig said,
    Can you provide a reliable source that any of this took place?

    My eyes. Newspaper photos, videos, etc.

    You "think" you know what's going on, but your really have no idea for sure. I had the privelage of driving one of the great Rabbis of our generation home from a wedding recently. He happens to be pretty savvy in terms of what's going in the world, especially on the internet and blogs. I asked him point blank if he thinks that the gedolei Hador really grasp the impact these media. He said "No".

    I'm sorry, but these Rabbis are old and "handled". Unless you can prove otherwise I see no reason to believe that they're getting the full picture.

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  26. hamasig, if you realy beleive that R' Elashiv knows the low down you are hopelessly naive.

    Unfortunately the Charedi brainwashing and mind control works very well.

    Mind you that the sad reality is tht very bad people cynicclly advance much of the Haredi shtussim that goes on and have ruind many peoples lives as a result.

    Since you ave been succesfully brainwashed by these inshi d'lo ma'ali, it will be hard to get through to you since you ust close your blessed eyes and blissfully scream "Da'as Torah, Gdol Hador" etc. how betifuit is to live in NeverNever Land but for starters go to bhol and find the video of some obnoxious hooligans "asking" R Elyashiv a question.

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  27. Great post. I also saw this and here's my take:

    http://habayitah.blogspot.com/2009/06/when-it-comes-to-persiairan-or-call.html

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  28. Hamasig said,
    Can you provide a reliable source that any of this took place?

    My eyes.


    So you were in downtown Jerusalem two weeks ago and you saw with your own eyes people throwing stones and diapers? I don't think so.

    Newspaper photos, videos,

    For every protester there were five cameramen. Surely someone must have caught on film the diapers and the stones. Show me a link.

    etc.

    Let me guess what this means. A comment on a blog?

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  29. You "think" you know what's going on, but your really have no idea for sure. I had the privelage of driving one of the great Rabbis of our generation home from a wedding recently. He happens to be pretty savvy in terms of what's going in the world, especially on the internet and blogs. I asked him point blank if he thinks that the gedolei Hador really grasp the impact these media. He said "No".

    I'm sorry, but these Rabbis are old and "handled". Unless you can prove otherwise I see no reason to believe that they're getting the full picture.


    Rav Eliyashiv has been around a century. The types that will see every chareidi action as being some sort of primitive outburst, have been around a long long time. You don't need to read blogs for that. Newspapers have been doing this for a lot longer, and their type have been here since creation. Nothing new under the sun.

    I don't he's been told about the details of the situation and how careful the Mayor was not to cause additional Chilul Shabbos.

    You don't think he knows how to ask a few basic questions.

    Maybe he does know and he disagrees with you. Have you thought about that?
    Maybe the Gerrer Rebbe also knows what's going on, and he disagrees with you too. Did you think about that?

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  30. So Hamasig, essentially you're asserting, absent evidence to the contrary, that Rav Elyashiv condones the behavior we've been talking about, e.g. throwing rocks, dirty diapers, cursing at fellow Jews?

    I certainly hope you're wrong. (Am pretty confident you are.) Either way I have my own posek, who clearly holds this is wrong and since I'm not in the litvish Chareidi world I, fortunately, would not be bound by such "daas Torah".

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  31. No. I am claiming nobody threw stones or diapers.

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  32. No. I am claiming nobody threw stones or diapers.

    Oh, I'm sorry. That's really sad.

    I assume you also don't believe that men landed on the moon, or that Michael Jackson really died, or that the Torah was given an Har Sinai. After all, seeing IS believing.

    Good luck with that!

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  33. There are pictures all over the internet of this hafganah. Youtube has several videos. So provide a link that has a picture. Anyone?

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  34. Can't stand the Baaley GaavahJune 26, 2009 12:49 PM

    Do you really think Rav Elyashiv knows the whole story. Do you think he'd approve of throwing rocks, dirty diapers at other Jews? Do you think think they're telling him how the world sees what these cretins do and how it shames Judaism and Hashem? I don't he's been told about the details of the situation and how careful the Mayor was not to cause additional Chilul Shabbos.


    even if he has limited understanding of these thimgs as you claim (although they aren't such brainstorm concepts compared to a simple sugya in shas)
    what deffinatelty is true is that his knowledge in these areas eclipses your knowledge and sensitivity of chillul Shabbos and Chillul Hashem as well as hanagaas hatzibbur, areas in which there aren't more than maybe five people in the world today that touch his coat tails.
    therefore while you are all expertsa in media attention and politics, maybe if you were more aware of his topics of expertise, it wouldn't be so cut and dry

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  35. I was told that in the heydays of Jerusalem Hareidi protests, Reb Haim Shmuelevitz Z"L darshaned to the whole Mir Yeshiva that we learn from this Rashi in Parshas Toldos that it's assur to throw stones (includes bottles and diapers):

    ויתרוצצו: על כרחך המקרא הזה אומר דורשני, שסתם מה היא רציצה זו וכתב אם כן למה זה אנכי. רבותינו דרשוהו לשון ריצה, כשהיתה עוברת על פתחי תורה של שם ועבר יעקב רץ ומפרכס לצאת, עוברת על פתחי עבודה זרה עשו מפרכס לצאת.

    struggled: Perforce, this verse calls for a Midrashic interpretation, for it does not explain what this struggling was all about, and [Scripture] wrote,“If it be so, why am I [like] this?” Our Rabbis (Gen. Rabbah 63:6) interpreted it [the word וַיִתְרוֹצִצוּ] as an expression of running (רוֹצָה) . When she passed by the entrances of [the] Torah [academies] of Shem and Eber, Jacob would run and struggle to come out; when she passed the entrance of [a temple of] idolatry, Esau would run and struggle to come out.


    Rav Shmuelevitz asked how did Rashi know that it wasn't the other way around? Perhaps when Rivka passed by the yeshiva, it was Eisav that struggled to come out and throw stones, and when she passed by a temple of idolatry it was Ya'akov who wanted to come out and throw stones?

    "Mi'kan", finished Rav Shmuelevitz, "you learn that it was p'shita to Rashi that Jews don't throw stones."

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  36. nu nu. a nice pshetal.

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  37. i think you all are clasical am aratzim and mizruchnikim who always take the side of the chilonim (Leshem shomayim of course) against the rabbanonim.

    This claim the askanim worked on the gedolim has been around before any of you were born.
    the yesodos of modern day yiddishkeit are as strong as they are because the gedoley yisroel fought tooth and nail on dozens of issues, and in each one of them, there were people that claimed that the gedolim were tricked.
    Heck, there were people that claimed that moshe rabbeinu was after the kavod and not working lesheym shamayim.

    Baruch Hashem we have great leaders that are not intimidated by the baale batim who claim to know everything

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  38. Proud to be a mizruchnik and a baal bayit. Ken yirbu.

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  39. Can someone explain how the mehumot are NOT mechallel shabbat?

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  40. Rafi, you make some good points in your post.

    IMHO, the key issue here, is what's next? This is similar to what Rav Ovadiah Yosef said recently.

    Is that the attitude of the protesters? I have no idea. But, I think it should be.

    The State is running scared. They'll do anything to chip away at the Torah. They know that the Haredim and some settlers hold it above the State {theoretically}.

    Any hypocrisy aside, they know this to be a threat to their power and are trying to find ways to battle against it.

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  41. You know, a lot of secular Israelis from all over the country come to Yerushalayim on Shabbat because they want to experience the special sanctity of the city. They go in droves on organized tours and soak up the experience that they can't get in TA or Be'er Sheva, etc. Shabbat is their day to break away from the mundanity of their lives, and they choose in large numbers to do so by visiting Yerushalayim. Just to give some perspective of their activities in the Holy City -- so we can all be aware of yet another aspect of Chillul Hashem that these visitors, many of whom are seeking a spiritual experience of some kind, are greeted in our Yerushalayim with such venom.

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  42. Tamar and others - I am torn in a sense. Is it better that visitors come to jerusalem and experience the atmosphere of Jerusalem, even if it means being mechalel shabbos? or maybe we should prefer that they stay away and go elsewhere or stay home and not be mechalel shabbos? Why should we say chillul shabbos is worth it just so that they can come to Jerusalem? (this has nothing to do with the parking lot issue really)

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  43. (I'm not G.)

    I'm with Tamar on this issue as I said above. The ultimate aim of the religious public should not be preserving the status quo, but advancing teshuva. The hiloni shabbat visitor to Jm should be made aware that he is doing something not acceptable but that we welcome him all the same. Dohe beyad smol umkarev beyad yamin.

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  44. To restate Tamar and Rafi G's comments:

    "Is it better to drive to Shull on Shabbat or to stay at home?"

    That is a common question in South Africa, where most of the Jews are members of an Orthodox Shull, even if they are not frum (/were not frum) and do not regularly attend.

    Of course, every orthodox Jew in South Africa would know to reply to these people that it is much more important to stay at home and not drive to Shull on Shabbat.

    And as the tremendous S.A. Ba'al Tshuva movement shows, not-driving-to-Shull-on-Shabbat does certainly not impede the return to Yiddishkeit.

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  45. Rafi G: this is Kiruv 101, that you don't invite the potential kiruvee to your house if he/she will drive there.

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  46. not really. I have asked shailohs about inviting non-frum relatives to a simcha on shabbos and was told that because they would be driving anyway and they are not being mechalel shabbos because of me, it is ok to invite them. But I was to let them know that I gave them the opportunity and preferred they stayed over for shabbos and did not drive.
    Then if they drove it is their business and not mine.

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  47. and regardless, the comparison is not great.
    There is one thing if you are inviting and they are coming for you. In a sense you are responsible for that, so some say better not to invite.
    If they are coming not because of any invitation from you, what does it have to do with you?

    yes, I know kol yisrael areivim zeh l'zeh (do they really feel that anyway is another question), but I am just saying the comparison you make is not good.

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  48. 1. Did your Shailah about non frum relatives involve you arranging special parking for them too?

    There is one thing if you are inviting and they are coming for you. In a sense you are responsible for that, so some say better not to invite.
    If they are coming not because of any invitation from you, what does it have to do with you?


    2. Specifically opening up the Shull parking to allow easier access is an "invitation"

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  49. 1. I did not arrange special parking. but I do not see why that would be more of an issue than the actual driving.

    2. they are not opening the lot and thereby expending an implicit invitation. someone else. is. It is like if I invite someone over to my house and he will drive, and you get upset. Go mind your own business.

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  50. To Anonymous 12:26 PM, who wrote:
    "Rafi G: this is Kiruv 101, that you don't invite the potential kiruvee to your house if he/she will drive there."
    Yerushalayim is not YOUR house. It belongs to all Jews.

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  51. Rafi G:
    Your approach mimics that of Chabad - to allow the non religious people to drive for the sake of kiruv. This is not endorsed by Gedolei Yisrael.
    Tamar:
    I beg to differ. You know very well that the blessing is: "ולירושלים עירך". It is Hashem's city, and we must abide by His laws.

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  52. anon - I dont have a position. When I was in that situation I asked a shailoh. I wrote what i was told. It was not a Lubavitch Rav I asked.

    In addition, I write, "I am torn in a sense. Is it better that visitors come to jerusalem and experience the atmosphere of Jerusalem, even if it means being mechalel shabbos? or maybe we should prefer that they stay away and go elsewhere or stay home and not be mechalel shabbos? Why should we say chillul shabbos is worth it just so that they can come to Jerusalem? (this has nothing to do with the parking lot issue really)" - I don't have a position and am unsure which is better and which is worse. And this is only if we have a say in it. If they are driving without asking us, that is a completely different issue.

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  53. ===============================

    Rafi G. said...

    Then if they drove it is their business and not mine.


    June 28, 2009 12:28 PM
    -------------------------------

    My late grandfather, from Galitzia, was a Mizrachishe Ba'al Bayit (to the dismay of some here apparently). He would not invite his own non-frum daughter and her family, for fear that he would be the cause of their Chilul Shabbat, including the issur of Ma'avir B'reshut Harabim, not just driving.

    My late grandfather was closest of friends with R' YB and R' Aharon Soloveitchik.

    I'm just saying.

    ===============================

    Tamar said...
    To Anonymous 12:26 PM, who wrote:
    "Rafi G: this is Kiruv 101, that you don't invite the potential kiruvee to your house if he/she will drive there."

    Yerushalayim is not YOUR house. It belongs to all Jews.

    June 28, 2009 1:22 PM

    -------------------------------

    Dear Tamar, Jerusalem is Hashem's house - not yours, ours or mine.

    "And now, if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be to Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the entire earth."
    - Shemot (Exodus) 19:5

    Hashem has given us warnings of how we can wind up kicked out. Forgive some of us for not wanting to repeat committing national suicide over and over again.

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  54. Oh man, spare me the sanctimony. If you can't see how this egregious chillul Hashem by chareidi extremists is not,in your words, committing national suicide over and over again, then we're right back at the eve of Churban bayit sheni:
    מפני מה גלו...ששונאין איש את רעהו ללמדך שקשה שנאת איש את רעהו לפני המקום ושקלה הכתוב כנגד ע"ז וג"ע וש"ד
    Tosephta Mnachot 13:22 AND 23. Further, if you want to bandy about psukim with the hubris of believing yourselves HKB"H's agents in enforcing His halacha, as it is HIS city, well then let's think a moment about how essentially Hashem wants HIS city accessible to all peoples -- כי ביתי בית תפילה יקרא לכל העמים, and I hardly think THAT utopian vision includes coersion of other Jews by means of soiled diapers while the rest of the worlds' nations stream by (ונהרו עליו עמים) and watch us destroy each other.

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  55. Tamar, let me clarify. I was not advocating approval of how the Hareidim are protesting but what they are standing for.

    I don't hate non-religious people. BTW, plenty of Hareidim don't either. One wonders what clumping everyone into one lump of assumptions is, if not Sinat Hinam. Pot. Kettle. Black.

    The Psukim and Limudim from them were given to us precisely to become Hashem's agents. That is our primary purpose in life.

    אתם עדיי נאום-יהוה, ועבדי אשר בחרתי: למען תדעו ותאמינו לי ותבינו, כי-אני הוא--לפניי לא-נוצר אל, ואחריי לא יהיה.

    Yeshayahu 43:10. I suggest you read the whole Perek.

    Sorry to burst your bubble but before "Beiti Beit Tefilah Yikarei Lechol Ha'Amim", the 2nd pasuk in that very same perek, Yeshayahu 56, happens to be:

    אשרי אנוש יעשה-זאת, ובן-אדם יחזיק בה--שומר שבת מחללו, ושומר ידו מעשות כל-רע.

    Yes, there are two sides here not being Shomer Shabbat. All the worse.

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  56. Actually, Yeshayahu 56:2, which I quoted above, is a double irony on the violent Shabbat protesters when you think about it.

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  57. Dear ShyGuy,
    Pot Kettle Black? When did I ever malign all chareidim? I said "chareidi extremists." That's not all chareidim, but only the extremists within that camp.
    Second, absolutely no bubbles burst here. Yes, Shabbat is sacred, and we should be very distraught that there are those Jews who do not yet recognize how beautiful life can be with shemirat Torah u'mitzvot. But we are NO WHERE sanctioned to be agents of HKBH in the form that these chareidi extremists are taking. As to the extent of one's obligation of tochacha, see Minchat Chinuch 239, Biur Halacha 608, and especially Chatam Sofer (Sanhedrin 52), who pasken that you essentially have no obligation (unless, says the MCh, there exists the possibility that the mechalel shabbat might heed your call -- fat chance while having to dodge rotten tomatoes). Isn't anyone at all paying attention to the sage words of R' Elazar b. Azariah "I would wonder if there is anyone in this generation (!) who is capable of giving rebuke" (Erchin 16b). Halevai that we would heed the advice of R' Alexander Zusia Friedman, who cautions that tochacha is only effective if it comes from a loving heart, like a father rebuking his son. I dare you to show me the love in the heart of someone who throws a soiled diaper or a rock at a Jewish policeman on Shabbat.

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  58. Tamar, when you stated "Chareidi extremists", I thought you were describing your view of Hareidim in general.

    Now that I understand that you meant the extremists among Hareidim, I withdraw what I said. Sorry.

    As for diapers and stones, I think I covered those in 2 or 3 of my posts already.

    As for Tochacha, it is not at all clear to me that mass demonstations on behalf of Kibud Shabbat are the same as the Tochacha of an individual who one has specifically witnessed being over a Mitzvah for which Tochacha would be qualified.

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  59. Rafi, I know this is your forum and this will be my last post on the subject, but I just wanted to reply one final time to ShyGuy with a snippet of a treatment I had written up on tochacha a while back -- providing a rapproachment I think, of sorts. So, if you'll indulge me please:

    R’ Shimshon Refael Hirsch, in his treatment of the mitzvah, posits that this mitzvah is concerned with promoting areivut amongst our people – loving concern for others and involvement in others’ lives and decisions. (He goes on to say that since we live in a time where very few can accept criticism or rebuke, and very few can give it effectively, we are strongly cautioned to go about fulfilling our obligation very, very carefully using the utmost discretion.) Thus while “hocheiach tochiach et amitecha” in the main remains a theoretical mitzvah that can very rarely be successfully applied, we must be wholly involved with our nation, both on a national and on an individual level. The חיוב compels us NOT to be disengaged and apathetic, but to care deeply about the spiritual wellbeing of Am Yisrael and our collective commitment to Torah and halacha. This obligation of tochecha, however theoretical, flies in the face of our age’s embrace of postmodern relativism (“How can I interfere in his decisions? It’s his life – let him eat the cheeseburger if he wants, so long as he doesn’t do it in my home”). While we must abide by all of the checks put on the pratical application of the mitzvah, we must still involve ourselves deeply in עריבות and strive to feel only genuine lovingkindness, care and concern towards our fellow Jews.

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  60. Tamar - keep writing. no need to apologize. as long as you have something to say, say it.

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  61. Tamar and Shy - from the articles I read and pix I saw, it seems like lots of veggies were thrown this time (baal tashchis?).

    Tamar - I think the protests are less intended to be tochacha, which they would never qualify for in their current form, and more to be a protest against what they see as sanctioned chillul shabbos.

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  62. So, Tamar, you think that RSRH would have viewed our community obligations in 19th century Frankfurt am Main and in 21st century Jewish-sovereign Jerusalem as equivalent?

    I don't.

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  63. I guess I can renege on the "last post" comment, since Rafi's allowing me to blab on. But yes, ShyGuy, I would imagine that RSRH would have paskened according to the dictates of the halacha of tochacha, as outlined above, and would have refrained from egregious displays of sanctimonious protest (I'm using the same words over again because I think they're appropriate, don't you?) Sovereign Israel as a Jewish state does not give the observant free reign to insist in a vicious manner that city ordinances be in accordance with halacha when other Israelis are seeking to find their place within the sanctity of the city. Can I presume that you were fortunate enough to have been born a practicing Jew, or that you arrived at that position within the framework of a yeshiva education? Most people are not in that boat, and need to cautiously navigate their way towards holiness. We're not giving them the space to do so; we're strangling the baby as it enters the world.
    About a month ago, Baltimore was engaged in a "Shabbos battle" over a decision to open one of the two JCCs on Shabbat. Their choice of demonstration was a prayer rally attended by much of the local Orthodox rabbinate and community. Was it effective? Not in the least, as the non-Orthodox bemusedly viewed the demonstration as a holier-than-thou preach-fest. But at least it didn't cause an uproar and was conducted civilly and in good taste.
    It's doubtful that we have a chiyuv for practical tochacha, and perfectly clear that if such a chiyuv exists we are to give much forethought as to how to level it. On the other hand, we clearly have a chiyuv for kiruv and promoting areivut, and demonstrations such as these are so counterproductive as to set us back significantly. Rafi -- as you stated earlier, how is this city-sponsored chillul shabbat if the lot is being operated by a non-jew? It seems like it was more a protest against chillul Shabbat in general -- a terrible approach which will drive Jews in droves away from Y-lem (like the pun there?)

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  64. Tamar, you hit the nail on the head again!
    You quoted the posuk: כי ביתי בית תפילה יקרא לכל העמים. Of course, the goyim are NOT ALLOWED to keep Shabbos, so it's great that they drive to J-m on Shabbos. (Refer to Rashi Pesochim 73a ד"ה אבר מו החי where it's משמע that it's a mitzva for a Yid to see to it that a goy isn't חייב מיתה for transgressing any of his ז' מצוות בני נח).

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  65. Tamar- a really extraordinary and beautiful response. Thank you very much.

    Abbi

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