Apr 9, 2018
the sale of chametz has to be taken seriously
the sale of chametz is real.
The statement above is really the reason I do not like the "new" chumra of demanding baked products after Pesach to be made from freshly ground flour rather than from flour sold for Pesach. The demand itself implies that the sale is not reliable or not true, which is not the case. Not only is it not the case, it makes the demand that stores sell their chametz problematic, when if they don't you will not buy there and if they do you will not buy there, so why should they bother? But worse is the implication that the sale is not valid or effective.
To that end, a makolet in Jerusalem dealt with some confusion between the partners and the owners never sold the chametz in the store. The confusion was caused by the owners brother having been responsible for selling the chametz for upwards of 23 years, and now has stopped working in the store. The active partner did not realize that he needed to deal with it and only realized later that it had not been done.
Right before the end of Pesach, on the last day of Chol Hamoed, it was discovered that the chametz in the store had not been sold. The rav of the neighborhood went to the store and insisted that all the chametz products be removed form the store and be destroyed by fire. The rav himself supervised the burning of all the chametz. Obviously the owner was hesitant to have tens of thousands shekels worth of product destroyed, but the rav's insistence with explanations that the community will not buy from him after Pesach persuaded him to go along with it.
source: Kikar
yes, the sale is a real transaction and must be done to be able to use the chametz after Pesach, and you cannot just find other solutions "after the fact".
Further, it seems that in the USA there was a problem with some brands of beer over Pesach. The Central Rabbinical Congress of the USA and Canada has published a letter (I could not find it on their website) certain beers, with a list, should not be purchased after pesach, despite the fact that the beers had been sold to a non Jew for Pesach.
The problem stems from a non-religious Jew who works as and agent and marketer for these beers. This non-religious Jew supposedly sold his products to a non_jew but during Pesach he continued doing business and selling and marketing these beers. The fact that he continued to do business with this product, despite it being sold to a non-Jew puts the entire original sale in a precarious position that makes it unreliable and turns all that beer into chametz owned by a Jew over Pesach that is then prohibited after Pesach. According to the vaad hakashrus, these beers cannot be purchased until after Shvuos.
source: Kikar
Again, the sale of chametz is a real thing, not just some fictitious loophole playing games.
The statement above is really the reason I do not like the "new" chumra of demanding baked products after Pesach to be made from freshly ground flour rather than from flour sold for Pesach. The demand itself implies that the sale is not reliable or not true, which is not the case. Not only is it not the case, it makes the demand that stores sell their chametz problematic, when if they don't you will not buy there and if they do you will not buy there, so why should they bother? But worse is the implication that the sale is not valid or effective.
To that end, a makolet in Jerusalem dealt with some confusion between the partners and the owners never sold the chametz in the store. The confusion was caused by the owners brother having been responsible for selling the chametz for upwards of 23 years, and now has stopped working in the store. The active partner did not realize that he needed to deal with it and only realized later that it had not been done.
Right before the end of Pesach, on the last day of Chol Hamoed, it was discovered that the chametz in the store had not been sold. The rav of the neighborhood went to the store and insisted that all the chametz products be removed form the store and be destroyed by fire. The rav himself supervised the burning of all the chametz. Obviously the owner was hesitant to have tens of thousands shekels worth of product destroyed, but the rav's insistence with explanations that the community will not buy from him after Pesach persuaded him to go along with it.
source: Kikar
yes, the sale is a real transaction and must be done to be able to use the chametz after Pesach, and you cannot just find other solutions "after the fact".
Further, it seems that in the USA there was a problem with some brands of beer over Pesach. The Central Rabbinical Congress of the USA and Canada has published a letter (I could not find it on their website) certain beers, with a list, should not be purchased after pesach, despite the fact that the beers had been sold to a non Jew for Pesach.
The problem stems from a non-religious Jew who works as and agent and marketer for these beers. This non-religious Jew supposedly sold his products to a non_jew but during Pesach he continued doing business and selling and marketing these beers. The fact that he continued to do business with this product, despite it being sold to a non-Jew puts the entire original sale in a precarious position that makes it unreliable and turns all that beer into chametz owned by a Jew over Pesach that is then prohibited after Pesach. According to the vaad hakashrus, these beers cannot be purchased until after Shvuos.
source: Kikar
Again, the sale of chametz is a real thing, not just some fictitious loophole playing games.
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The chumra of not using chometz which was sold is not SO new - I remember many people conducting themselves that way a quarter of a century ago.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, I saw a letter from Rav Chaim Berlin ztz"l to Rav Kook ztz"l (regarding the Heter Mechira) where Rav Chaim Berlin assumes that obviously Rav Kook doesn't eat chometz which has been sold over Pesach. Of course, then it was presumably the practice of individuals, not a common minhag as it is becoming today.
I don't understand the chumra of flour that was ground after Pessach. If there is a mad rush on fresh flour after Pessach, doesn't that increase the possibility that some of the flour in ground in the months after Pessach will be made from this year's grain (i.e., Chadash) which is a Issur De'oratiah. Flour (which isn't even Chameitz unless it was treated with water) which was sold over Pessach could not be Chaddash (by definition).
ReplyDeleteAt the end of his life, the Rabbi in my shul when I was growing up was declining mentally, slowly but surely (this was in USA). One year on Pesach, someone noticed that our Rabbi did not submit the chometz shtaros to Rabbi X who actually sold it to the goy.
ReplyDeleteThe psak of Rabbi X was that b'dieved they can use their chometz after pesach because he has a clause in his contract with the goy to include everyone who sold his chometz through him last year, but forgot to do it this year.
that's an interesting clause. I never heard of that before
Deleteregarding the situation with the beer, after more reading on the topic I have discovered that the chametz was sold properly via the OK and this issue is being pushed by the Star K and the Vaad, against the OK, and seems to be more a political fight than an actual kashrus fight. it does not change the point, but depending on the exact true details of this case, it might or might not be relevant to the point of the post
ReplyDelete1. Arutz sheva has the story as the remaining storeowner very willingly burned the chametz. Perhaps kikar has an agenda to imply it was only under the rav's orders.
ReplyDelete2. The clause of last year's customers is pretty standard, but in the fine print. Would probably apply to this store owner
3. Nachalat Shiva (an early achron) has several contracts for sale of chametz. So its not a new thing.
Though originally it was for dealers in liquor or other chametz. The 'every household' procedure is relatively new, but my parents remember their parents doing it prewar Hungary.
Store owner could have relied upon default clause in Rabbanut mechiras chametz, had he wished to, even according to one of the Rabbonim who ordered it burned.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bhol.co.il/132308/%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%93%D7%95%D7%A9-%D7%94-%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%A3-%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%A5-%D7%91-%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%A3-%D7%A9%D7%97.html?cat=1
"למעשה" אומר הרב פרנק "בעל החנות יכל להסתמך על ההיתר של פוסקים רבים של זכין לאדם שלא בפניו שאדם שנוהג למכור ורק שכח אז בית דין כותבים שהם מוכרים גם בשביל אלו ששכחו והוא בכל אופן התעקש לשרוף כהוראת הרבנים".
DeleteThis post is included in the latest Shiloh Musings: Post- Passover Blog Round Up:
ReplyDeleteI hope you enjoy reading it and the other posts.
Please share and comment, thanks.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1504126/alert-conflicting-reports-regarding-kosher-status-of-beer-in-tri-state-area-after-pesach.html
ReplyDelete