There is some funny fight going on over in Lakewood, Ir Hakodesh, about making aliyah... I am not quite sure what the exact story is and who is behind what, but this is pretty intriguing..

In the recent edition of the Headlines podcast, on the topic of the religious/haredi organizations promoting people pay to vote, and to vote for religious groups who will redirect funding to more pro-Torah directions, in the upcoming WZO elections, interviewees justified their stance in interesting ways.

While one could say we need to fight them, to take advantage of an opportunity, and gadol x or y says that this is important enough of a goal that we need to change a longstanding policy of not getting involved in such organizations, that is not what they are saying. In the interview they justified their stance promoting frum voting in the WZO elections by saying they are not becomign members - just paying to vote, the ban was always on coordinating and working with clergy - Reform rabbis, and voting in WZO elections is not doing that but only dealing with laymen and lay leadership but not clergy, and the statement being signed on when voting can be understood differently than what the authors intended, in the spirit of Yaakov Avinu's white lie so to speak, so they are not lying by affirming the statement.

Rav Ahron Feldman, Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisrael in Baltimore and member of the Moetzes Gedolei Torah of the USA, has published a letter stating otherwise.

Rav Feldman writes that it is forbidden to declare oneself as a member of, or ascribing to a program, of an organization whose platform fails to recognize the Jewish nation is a nation which received the Torah at Mount Sinai. Such a declaration is a chilul hashem and may not be made no matter what material or spiritual benefits will thereby accrue.

that is Rav Feldman's opinion, stated as Daas Torah. It is not the decision of the full Moetzes, so I am not sure if it obligates anyone specifically (besides for Rav Feldman's talmidim). Perhaps the Moetzes should issue an official statement on such an important issue and discussion.

Despite that, Rav Feldman is a serious enough player that his opinion carries a lot of weight and needs to be addressed. I don't think people who live by the dictum of daas torah and following the gedolim can just ignore someone like Rav Feldman. I would be curious to hear their response, whether it is to change their position in accordance with Rav Feldman's opinion or to offer the guidance of another Moetzes member supporting them or to explain why they disagree.

Offhand I would think that their opinion stating that they are not becoming members by paying to vote - they do not receive member benefits (other than voting) or a membership card or any other symbol of membership in return - already preempted Rav Feldman's opinion. He says that it is forbidden to become a member of such an organization, but they say they are not becoming members. Rav Feldman adding "or ascribe to" limits their ability to say that though. it is not just membership in such an organization that would be a chilul hashem, according to Rav Feldman, but participating in their programs is also forbidden.

Another argument I can see put forth is that the statement being signed when voting is affirming one's commitment to "The Jerusalem program. The Jerusalem Program states:

Zionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, brought about the establishment of the State of Israel, and views a Jewish, Zionist, democratic and secure State of Israel to be the expression of the common responsibility of the Jewish people for its continuity and future.
The Jerusalem Program's foundations of Zionism are:

• -The unity of the Jewish people, its bond to its historic homeland Eretz Yisrael, and the centrality of the State of Israel and Jerusalem, its capital, in the life of the nation;

• -Aliyah to Israel from all countries and the effective integration of all immigrants into Israeli society.

• -Strengthening Israel as a Jewish, Zionist and democratic state and shaping it as an exemplary society with a unique moral and spiritual character, marked by mutual respect for the multi-faceted Jewish people, rooted in the vision of the prophets, striving for peace and contributing to the betterment of the world.

• -Ensuring the future and the distinctiveness of the Jewish people by furthering Jewish, Hebrew and Zionist education, fostering spiritual and cultural values and teaching Hebrew as the national language;

• -Nurturing mutual Jewish responsibility, defending the rights of Jews as individuals and as a nation, representing the national Zionist interests of the Jewish people, and struggling against all manifestations of anti-Semitism;

• -Settling the country as an expression of practical Zionism.

There is a lot there about Zionism. The supporters of voting can explain that they understand that to include religious zionism which does recognize the Jewish nation as a nation that received the Torah. They would say the subject lacking in the statement, which is the point of his protest, is really included. I actually think this is more reasonable than their arguments about changing meaning of words, not becoming members, and all that stuff.

Further, many organizations do not explicitly affirm anything about the Jewish nation and the Torah, yet people become members of those organizations without any protest. Does, MDA say anything about the Torah? What about Ichud Hatzala? Those organizations deal with medical emergencies and talk about the importance of saving lives. Why would they need to say anything about the Torah? What about organizations that conduct cancer research or feeding the poor or helping people get parnassa or keeping kids off drugs or Yedidim/chaverim helping people stuck with cars that broke down whatever? As long as any given organization does not state that they do not believe in the Torah and Jewish nation having received it, I dont see why this is really a problem. If it were, frum jews would not be able to be members of, or participants in, many programs and organizations they are part of already. 

Edit: I found this after I wrote the post, so I am adding it with comments but dont have time to go over what I already wrote and possibly rewrite it..

Rav Brudny, also a member of the Moetzes, has a different opinion than Rav Feldman. See this:


I find this intriguing. He compares voting in WZO to UTJ being a participant in the Israeli government. I don't think that is a bad comparison at all. So different Moetzes members clearly have different opinions. Again, it is an issue that is possibly worth convening a meeting of the Moetzes and getting an official opinion about.

According to an article on Actualic, Degel activists are not happy with the decision to support Moshe Lion for mayor in Jerusalem rather than Yossi Deutsch. Earlier Degel leader Rav Baruch Soloveitchil was also quoted as saying he does not understand the decision to support Lion rather than Deutsch but that's what the rabbonim decided... now the activists are upset, calling it political suicide. They are murmuring and even saying that Lion and Berkovitch will likely make it to the second round of voting and they suspect the Chassidic groups will support Berkovitch in the second round as revenge for Degel not supporting Deutsch. The activists basically feel that supporting Lion is a flawed decision that has no chance of success.

None of us are prophets and nobody really knows what will happen next week. The most anybody can do is guess and make assumptions based on what they think will happen and based on the numbers they believe in.

What will or will not happen is not the point here, as I do not peddle in prophecy. I am neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet.

My point is that I find it interesting that the party activists are openly upset and talking against the decision made by the political leadership upon consultation with the rabbonim. I do not remember any such behavior in past elections, even when some decisions were potentially questionable. I think it points to the leadership void since the deaths of Rav Elyashiv and Rav Shteinman. And maybe also the move away from taking everything the rabbonim say as the final word and "torah misinai"

Rav Elboim, a Belzer Chassid who goes up daily to har Habayit and has been doing so for many years, is in the center of a big fight.

Due to the false claims that Israel is trying to change the status quo on Har Habayit and therefore the Arabs justify killing people, the media is non-stop talking about those who go up to Har Habayit as provoking terror.

This has caused the Elboim family, a large Haredi family of Belzer hassidim who all go up regularly, to become the target of Haredi protests and attacks. The Neturei Karta have been protesting outside houses of family members of the Elboim family. Askanim have been making moves within the hassidus to pressure the Elboims to stop going up, It has even come to the point that Elboims have been physically attacked, in addition to verbal abuse.

To get to the point, the Belzer Rebbe has come to a decision, supposedly, that unless the Elboims stop, they will be thrown out of the hassidus and everything that entails, such as their children will be thrown out of the schools, and they will be thrown out of all the Belz mosdos.
source: Kooker (at this link you can hear a radio interview with Elboim about this) , Bechadrei and Kikar

for years the Elboims have been going up almost daily. Until now, the Rebbe has refused to tell the Elboims to stop, despite the Rebbe making his public proclamations as to the prohibition of going up to Har Habayit. Suddenly the Rebbe will throw Elboim out for going up? This reeks of askanim forcing daas torah according to their wishes rather than actual daas torah.

In the comments of a recent post, I was asked the following question:

Now I can understand the people out there who take absolutely no heed of the Rabbanim or Gedolim on any issues, why should they start now by the elections? But I know both of you guys to be G-d fearing jews. Doesn't HaRav Steinman even move you by 1%??? So many Rabbanim and Gedolim have instructed to vote for Abutbul. And you yourself aren't that against it either. You just prefer Lerner. Why wouldn't you want to make a Kiddush Hashem and be mekayem a mitzva of listening to the Gedolim to boot?
(Don't answer that RCM supports them all cos we all know his approach is closer to abstaining than to endorsing everyone!)
I am not writing to try to recruit votes for Abutbul. I am just genuinely baffled.

The following is my answer:

I am not a talmid of Rav Steinman, and to me he is just as much a gadol as the Gerrer Rebbe who says to vote Lerner.
I am following Rav Malinowitz's opinion, that if I was a talmid of Rav Steinman I would be obligated to listen to him. Since I am not, as a matter of fact he has never said two words to me nor I to him, I am not obligated to listen. Rav Malinowitz's "psak" was for his kehilla that we are intelligent enough to make our own decision.

Being that I can make my own decision, you ask why I do not conduct myself like Rav Steinman says to? I say why choose him? Why not choose the Gerrer Rebbe?

I did not make my decision based on the Gerrer Rebbe's opinion, but I see no reason to choose Rav Steinman's opinion over his.

So I ask you, and I do not know who you are and maybe you are a talmid of Rav Steinman, but assuming you are not, why do you choose to follow him?

Another point I would make is that UTJ MK Moshe Gafni has said numerous times that his goal is to protect and fight for the yeshivas. Once a person leaves yeshiva, there are others he can turn to (he said it at least once in response to a question why he did not support a bill that would have helped haredi baalei batim with lower taxes - though I do not remember the details of the bill, and I heard him say it in regards to other things as well - another example had to do with post-yeshiva Haredim in the army) for that help. Degel's job is to help the yeshivas, that's it. Once you leave yeshiva, you are lower priority for Degel.

That is perfectly legitimate in my opinion. They want to prioritize their work for one specific sector.

No problem. But don't expect me to automatically vote for you. I am not in yeshiva anymore. Unfortunately perhaps, but that is the reality. I find supporting yeshivas to be a very great endeavor. But I am not in yeshiva. I work for a living and have a [large] family, and I have personal concerns, and communal concerns that for me take priority over yeshivas.

So if Gafni says he does not need to work for me, then I have no need to follow him, and vote according to his wishes..

Oh yeah, one more thing - did you know that Greenberg is Gafni's parliamentary assistant? Did you know that Montag is his nephew? Do you really think the gedolim choose (as if they were actually involved in the process) the best reps for the haredi public or perhaps they just choose those that are the best connected?
Not that they are bad reps. Perhaps they have become great reps.

another thing, look at Beitar as an example.
the degel branch there recently had internal voting to decide who would be higher up on the list and get the Deputy Mayor position. The two candidates were a guy named Yossi Shitreet, and a guy named Yitzchak Ravitz. Yes, Ravitz is the son of the Degel MK.

Turns out Ravitz surprisingly lost to Shitreet, and MK Ravitz is fighting to get Shitreet thrown otu because Degel is an Ashkenazy party and a sfardi shold not be there. He should be in Shas.

So as long as he was just a voter, and a shlepper, it was ok for him to be in Degel. As soon as he beat out the "son of" for the paying job in city hall, then all of the sudden there is no room for him.

I dont know if Ravitz won, or will win, his fight or not, but even if he loses it, he will just move his son to another city where he can put him at the head of Degel there.

Degel HaTorah is a family business. I am not family, so I do not feel beholden to them.

I have no problem with Degel being a family business. I just feel no obligation to vote for them. If I do vote for them, it is because they earned it. And because it is a family business, I do not consider it a mitzva of any sort to vote for them or for their recommendation for mayor.

If I feel like voting for them because I like certain things they do, I will vote for them. If not, not. If I wish to follow their recommendation for mayor, I will. If not, not. I am open to them just as I am open to every other party, as per my needs and concerns.

If I need to buy something, and there are two stores that sell it. For whatever reason I ask my rav which store I should go to. He tells me one of them. I find out that his wife or son-in-law own that store. So is it a mitzva to shop there now. I think because the store is owned by his relative, it is no longer a mitzva, and the psak is tainted with conflict of interest. I might still choose to buy the item there, because perhaps they give better service, or maybe they sell it with a bigger smile, or they'll give me a discount or whatever other reason there might be. But it will not be a mitzva. This is how I look at the relationship between Degel and the rabbonim.

Another thing - Do you know how many stories I have heard of Haredi baalei Batim who can't get their kids into schools? Do Gimmel people help? no. often, and I am aware of cases, where it is the gimmel askanim who were the cause for them being rejected, claiming they are not frum enough.

Now those same askanim have the chutzpah to call these people and demand that they vote gimmel.

So again - if I want to vote Gimmel because I admire their work and think they do important stuff, more so than other parties, I will vote for them. If not, not. I will not vote for them just because of social obligations, or because I am bullied into it. if I vote for them it is because I want to.
And the same goes for mayor. i will choose for whom I want to vote. I feel beholden to nobody, and I have no need to listen to anybody else's opinion on who I should vote for. Nobody has a right to demand my vote. Tell me your guy's qualities and platform, and maybe I will be convinced. But nobody has a right to demand my vote.