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Nov 5, 2007
the daughters of Lot and virgin birth
I was told this fascinating story last night and it can be found in the introduction to the sefer Igros Moshe vol. 8. There the author writes a brief biography of Reb Moshe and this is one of the stories included...
In 5682 (around 1921 I guess) Reb Moshe Feinstein was the Rav of the town Luban. Somebody from the town fell il with a very unusual disease in which his tongue swelled up.
The doctors could not figure it out, but he was on his deathbed from this illness. Reb Moshe went to visit him. When Reb Moshe walked in, the man sent everyone else out of the room saying he had to talk to Reb Moshe in private.
Everyone left and he turned to Reb Moshe and this is what he told him. he said he knows why he contracted this illness. He said that the week before (which had been Parshas Va'Yeira) he had given a drasha in which he berated the daughter's of Lot for what they had done. He spoke very harshly about their act and criticized them especially harshly for the brazenness of naming the child after the deed and thereby publicizing it to everyone. He questioned why they merited to have the Messiah descend from them (the Messiah is a descendant of King David who is a descendant of Ruth the convert from Moab), considering what they had done.
He said that the night before 2 elderly women came to him in a dream and identified themselves as the daughters of Lot. They were upset at the way he had spoken about them and wanted to respond. They told him, so he related to Reb Moshe, that he should not have accused them for living depraved lives and committing such shameful acts. They said we are from the family of Avraham. Everything we did had a purpose.
They explained that they thought they were the last people on earth to survive the destruction and they had to ensure the continuity of mankind. That required them committing such an act even though it was heinous. They had no other choice. However they felt that they had to publicize it because if they did not then future generations would make a deity out of the child born to them because they would consider it a virgin birth considering no other man was around and they would not cohabit with their own father.
To avoid the result of people thinking it to be a virgin birth and possibly making a religion out of them, they decided that they had to publicize what they did, no matter how shameful - to show everyone that there is no such thing as birth without a father.
They concluded that that is exactly the reason they merited having Messiah descend from them - because of the self--sacrifice they displayed in this act.
And they said that is why you have to be punished measure for measure for the harsh words you spoke about us.
He concluded telling the story to Reb Moshe, he turned to the wall, and passed away.
In 5682 (around 1921 I guess) Reb Moshe Feinstein was the Rav of the town Luban. Somebody from the town fell il with a very unusual disease in which his tongue swelled up.
The doctors could not figure it out, but he was on his deathbed from this illness. Reb Moshe went to visit him. When Reb Moshe walked in, the man sent everyone else out of the room saying he had to talk to Reb Moshe in private.
Everyone left and he turned to Reb Moshe and this is what he told him. he said he knows why he contracted this illness. He said that the week before (which had been Parshas Va'Yeira) he had given a drasha in which he berated the daughter's of Lot for what they had done. He spoke very harshly about their act and criticized them especially harshly for the brazenness of naming the child after the deed and thereby publicizing it to everyone. He questioned why they merited to have the Messiah descend from them (the Messiah is a descendant of King David who is a descendant of Ruth the convert from Moab), considering what they had done.
He said that the night before 2 elderly women came to him in a dream and identified themselves as the daughters of Lot. They were upset at the way he had spoken about them and wanted to respond. They told him, so he related to Reb Moshe, that he should not have accused them for living depraved lives and committing such shameful acts. They said we are from the family of Avraham. Everything we did had a purpose.
They explained that they thought they were the last people on earth to survive the destruction and they had to ensure the continuity of mankind. That required them committing such an act even though it was heinous. They had no other choice. However they felt that they had to publicize it because if they did not then future generations would make a deity out of the child born to them because they would consider it a virgin birth considering no other man was around and they would not cohabit with their own father.
To avoid the result of people thinking it to be a virgin birth and possibly making a religion out of them, they decided that they had to publicize what they did, no matter how shameful - to show everyone that there is no such thing as birth without a father.
They concluded that that is exactly the reason they merited having Messiah descend from them - because of the self--sacrifice they displayed in this act.
And they said that is why you have to be punished measure for measure for the harsh words you spoke about us.
He concluded telling the story to Reb Moshe, he turned to the wall, and passed away.
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wow - that's so interesting!
ReplyDeleteWOOWOW - thank you for writing this story. So much to learn about guarding our tongue... Shamayim hears everything but we are so unaware!!!!
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting, but Rashi was also quite critical of the daughters of Lot and I don't believe anything happened to him.
ReplyDeleteZevy
maybe this guy was harsher.. we do not know what he said and how he said it, just the general idea...
ReplyDeleteNothing happened to Rashi? Didn't he die?
ReplyDelete:)
The point is not to criticize people when you don't know much about them. Good advice, and something that might lead to less sinas chinam.
ReplyDeleteDid it occur to anyone that maybe, just maybe, this guy's dream was just a dream, and it wasn't that they ACTUALLY appeared to him??!!!
ReplyDeleteActually, we learn from this that the daughters were trying to show that creating a religion based on belief of wirgin-birth is ludicrous.
ReplyDelete"In 5682 (around 1921 I guess) Reb Moshe Feinstein was the Rav of Luban . . . " -- Rafi G.
ReplyDeleteIsrael was re-founded in 5708. 5682 is 26 years earlier, which makes it 1922, or 1921 if prior to Dec., of 1948. O.k. And according to the biography I read, Rav Moshe was the Rav of Luban at that time, though he was not yet married.
The rest of it sounds pretty strange, so I was hoping there was a way to check, and there seems to be. Over at DivreiChaim blog the same story is told, and the auther tells the skeptical to look it up for themselves, HERE [on p. 21 of the PDF copy of p.15 of the Sefer - between the stars. (What's that mean?)], after someone observed that Rashi is very critical of Lot's daughters, and he wasn't struck dead.
But I'm afraid my Hebrew isn't good eough to get the fine points, just to find the topic. So, if anyone wants to translate more of it, I think it might be interresting to see what the context is, and exactly what the compiler's point was in telling that story when he does. (I say compiler instead of Rav Moshe, because the Sefer was published posthumously, so I don't know if it is exactly as the Rav would have written it.)
But, now that I think of it, I remember learning that for Moshiach to have come from Lot's daughters, it could not have been as it appeared, and that what they did must really have been done purely L'Shem Shamaim. The same is true for David and Batsheva, Tamar and Judah, etc. There was in fact nothing wrong with them, and they were on the highest level of purity. The reason they have to APPEAR Shmutzy is that the diamond must be concealed until the time to reveal it's value has arrived.
And, now that I say that, I'm even more curious about what that story was intended to illustrate!
Thanks Rafi G.
anon - thanks for the background.. BTW, at the beginning of the story it explains that Reb Moshe used this story as an example of showing how great they were (even the baalei batim) in Torah that they even had traces of Ruach Ha'Kodesh
ReplyDeleteTWO CORRECTIONS
ReplyDelete(1) "...if it was prior to Dec 1948" should have read "...if it was prior to Dec 1947"
(2) The person who referenced Rashi was commentor "ZEVY". (Amusingly answered by "yoni r" - funny!)
Sorry.
I'm "yoni h", btw.
RAfi G.
ReplyDeleteThanks!
!
ReplyDeleteIf Rav Moshe was alive today, he would have stones thrown at him because of his "subway" psak; that there's no issue of negiah because there's no ta'ava or chiba.
Is the school in the JPost article the one right next to/in Ramat Neriah?
ReplyDeleteTotally amazing story. I recall reading (in the name of Reb Sholomo Carlebach) that one of Rus was indeed the gilgul of one of Lot's daughters (the one that was stoned in S'dom for hachnachas orchaim).
ReplyDeleteEven the best CPA can't know the "accounting" of HaKodesh Baruch Hu. Mitvot, sins and tshuva aren't simple numbers.
ReplyDeleteThere are factors only G-d knows, and we have to accept them. That story is a reminder.
B"H
ReplyDeleteHi Neil Harris, What do you mean when you say "that one of Rus was indeed the gilgul of one of Lot's daughters "
What is Rus ?????
Rus was the convert to Judaism who married Boaz and was the grandmother of King David...
ReplyDeleteB"H
ReplyDeleteHi Rafi, thank you, I didn't realize that Rus is רות. I am used to the English Ruth!
no problem... actually it took me a minute to realize it as well... I am also used to it being spelled Ruth in English...
ReplyDelete