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Apr 1, 2012
Eating Kitniyot on Shabbos After Pesach
An interesting dilemma created by the calendar, applying only in Israel (this year), is the possibility of an Ashkenazi eating kitniyot on the Shabbos after Pesach. With the first day of Pesach falling out on Friday night, the 7th day is Thursday night-Friday. That means Shabbos is already no longer Pesach. Yet, one cannot eat chametz on that Shabbos for two very practical reasons:
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- the rabbi has not yet had the chance to buy chametz back from the non-Jew.
- even if you found a way to get chametz, you would have a problem cooking it. You cannot cook on Shabbos, and you can't own it before Shabbos to cook (even in disposable pans).
Perhaps you could find a non-Jew (no simple task in many religious cities in Israel) who would give you some chametz already prepared, but you might have bishul akum problems, or chametz she'avar alav ha'pesach if they bought it from a Jew.
The real problem is kitniyot. technically, on that Shabbos you will be allowed to eat kitniyot. However, there are also practical problems with doing so.
There are a variety of opinions, as always, with regards to what options a person has.
One opinion say the kitniyot is muktze. On Pesach you had no use for it, so it was muktze. When it then ran into Shabbos, at no point did it have a moment where it became not-muktze, so it remains muktze on Shabbos.
Most opinions do not consider the kitniyot to be muktze, and relegate the issue to more of a practical problem. How would one cook kitniyot for Shabbos. Can you cook it on Thursday for shabbos (obviously not in your regular Pesah-dige pots)? Can you cook it on Friday while relying on the eruv tavshilin?
For Thursday some say you can cook it, while others say it is a problem with preparation on chol hamoed for after the holiday, which is prohibited. For Friday, there is a debate whether one can use the eruv tavshilin to prepare for Shabbos food that cannot be eaten on Friday.
The most practical thing you could do is buy or prepare kitniyot prior to Pesach and put it away (not sell with chametz, as there is no need to sell kitniyot) to be taken out on Shabbos. This would work better with food that does not need to be prepared, such as a bag of peanuts or sunflower seeds, but perhaps can be done as well with prepared foods as well - vacuum pack your bag of cooked rice and stick it in the freezer). Some still say it is a problem because of muktze, but I think most are of the opinion that this would be ok.
Of course, going one more day without rice and hummus is not such a big deal, so you could just wait until motzei Shabbos or Sunday and then eat it fresh.
For all practical purposes, we in Israel will be keeping 8 days of Pesach this year, but only holding one Pesach seder.
What practical solutions have you come up with to this "problem"?
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well, considering so many people turn over their kitchens early, what's really the big deal of having one more day at the end of pesach food?
ReplyDeleteYou say there is no way to each chametz on the Shabbos - why could you not get a different non-Jew to buy your chametz back on your behalf, and then gift it to you? You could have challot in the freezer or something.
ReplyDeleteIt's so much more pleasant and in keeping with the joyous nature of the chag to just....follow the psak halacha of Rav David Bar-Hayim allowing kitniyot.
ReplyDeleteyaak - that sounds like it should work. in israel it is still a practical problem, as there are not that many goyim around religious neighborhoods to do this with. and even if you went out anf found one willing to do this rather than go the route through the rabbinate (whether rabbanut or private community rabbis) you would have to figure out how to properly do the transaction and create the document, and have the goy know whats going on. not very practical overall.
ReplyDeleteStan - why does eating kitniyot make the holiday more pleasant and joyous?
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking Temani Matzot, a container of chummus and bbq'ed meat. Mmmm... laffas!
ReplyDeleteWe have been invited to a Sefardi home for Shabbat lunch. They can prepare the food on Pesach, we can eat it on Shabbat.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I haven't time just now to look up sources, BUT:
ReplyDeleteKitnyot = muktza? No. They are permitted to Ashkenazim for every use (such as animal food) other than normal eating.
Pesah utensils are not affected/forbidden by having kitnyot cooked in them. For this reason one who does not eat kitnyot on Pesah may eat by someone who does eat them. The guest may not eat actual kitnyot, but taam in the keilim doesn't concern us. I think Shulhan Aruch and later ahronim will largely support this; and that is how Rav Mordechai Eliyahu instructed those who don't eat kitnyot on Pesah. So if I am allowed to eat by my Teimani friends and not worry about the taam absorbed in their utensils (remember, this is a g'zeira d'rabbanan with quite a few exceptions), why couldn't we consider cooking kitnyot on last day hol hamoed for Shabbat? I don't think it is so far-fetched, other than requiring some sort of sign that this is in violation of the minhag, and mustn't be eaten until Shabbat. I don't recall what was done in the past.
1. You can easily have a tub of chummus in your fridge and eat it on matzah on Shabbat. And while you sell your chametz, there is no need to sell your kitniyot!
ReplyDelete2. If you don't want to touch kitniyot on Pesach, you can have a sefardi neighbor make you a chulent for Shabbat on Friday afternoon and put it on the plata.
3. Obviously, you cannot eat chametz on shabbat (when could the kinyan be made? Not permitted on shabbat!).
if I am not mistaken, the opinion that kitniyot is muktze is held by the Chazon Ish and seems to be a daas yachid
ReplyDeleteAshkenazim can get invited to a Sfardic family for Shabbat meals.
ReplyDeleteI don't think an eruv tavshilin lets you cook food on Friday when it's open and obvious that you won't be eating it that day. If so, there's a problem with cooking kitniyot, if you don't eat it on Pesach.
ReplyDeletegetting invited to a sefardi for a meal is a good solution. There should be a movement encouraging sefardim to invite their ashkenazi brethren over for a meal that shabbat. It could be called unity shabbat or something like that
ReplyDeleteMy friend's Rav said they are better cooking Thursday than Friday (maybe since whatever is cooked Thursday *could* be used for chag more than that on Friday?). And since they could cook kitniyot for their Sefardi neighbor, they can cook it anytime during Pesach.
ReplyDeleteMe, I'm not going to bother - checking through grains 3 times and all that.
i asked my rav about the kinyan on shabbat and his answer was as follows:
ReplyDeleteאין בעיה של קניין בשבת, אלא אם הקניין מפורש. מותר לקחת מחנות בקבוק שתיה בשבת, בלי לפרש למוכר שתשלם לו במוצ"ש, אך זה ברור ביניכם. על זה סומכים בבתי מלון.
also, a friend showed me an "alon" in shul that said to avoid the "muktza" problem by having sefardi guests and cooking for them. now, we're talking "unity shabbos"!
the hametz would seem to be muktzeh even if a goy gave you some beer from his fridge on shabbos.
ReplyDeletethe kitnios is a machlokes (you can find it in the piskei teshuvos). RSZA allowed it (as did R. Tukachinsky), he even was inclined to believe that one may cook it on 7th day.
It is either b/c it is ראוי לחולה שאין בו סכנה וזה נחשב דבר מצוי
OR
שזה ראוי לקהילות אוכלי קטניות שנמצאים בינינו באותה עיר.
If it was useable for non-food purposes, I don't think that would make it non-muktzeh for eating. Also one would not use people food for other purposes.
Here the connotation of muktze is for use. The prohibition of moving it, is only a result of it being muktze for any purpose.
Muktze because it's uncooked, maybe? Like raw noodles are useless on Shabbat (unless you're my kids who like to chew raw spaghetti), so kitniyos in a form that can't yet be eaten are also useless?
ReplyDeleteI want to add my objection to the statement that you can't use your regular pesach pots to cook kitniyot. I eat kitniyot and have served many Ashkenazim food prepared in my "kitniyot pots" and there is not problem with this since kitniyot is not chametz.
ReplyDeleteI have friends who have solved the 8th day issue by inviting us over and expecting us to bring all the side dishes for shabbos.
please explain.
ReplyDeletejust because you have done it is not proof that it is ok. you are coming from a point that kitniyot is ok to begin with. from the perspective of those who do not eat kitniyot, maybe most would not agree (if they knew) that your cooking in kitniyot pots is ok.
even though kitniyot is not chametz, we do not eat it. I would assume that includes cooking in pots, as the "absorption" of kitniyot into the pots would then go into my pesach food.
spoke about this in Shabbat see http://arikahn.blogspot.com/2012/04/regarding-chametz-and-kitniot-in-israel.html
ReplyDeleteIf kitniyot is not chametz, how can it make your pots chametzdik? I've never heard of "kitniyotdik" utensils. If you cooked lentils in a Pesachdik pot by accident would you need to kasher it?
ReplyDeletemother - it clearly does not make it hametz. but if someone who does not eat kitniyot mistakenly cooks kitniyot in his pot or mixed with food, can he eat that food 9assuming there is not enough proportions for bittul. I dont know but I think most people would not eat it.
ReplyDeleteOur Rav said that one may cook kitniyot on Friday for Shabbat (even though one can't eat it on Friday) - albeit not in one's Pesach pots. His reasoning was that if one's Sephardi neighbors would stop by on Friday, one could serve the kitniyot to them. Also, one could serve the kitniyot to a choleh or to little kids.
ReplyDeleteHere's another one - buy products which have a year-round hechsher that you use but a Pesach hechsher that you might not. And eat them on Isru Chag/Shabbat (assuming they don't require cooking).
ReplyDeleteinterestingly, and this was pointed out to me as part f a different conversation, some will not make early shabbat when going from shvii shel pesach to shabbat, out of concern that someone ight mistakenly eat kitniyot before actual nightfall thinking pesach has concluded and shabbat had begun..
ReplyDelete