I learned something new today.

According to Calcalist, avreichim get a full exemption form the army when they hit 25. They only need the yeshiva bochur deferment until they hit the age of 25. So, base don what we have always thought, that avreichim don't join the workforce because of their situation with the army preventing them from doing so, is not relevant after 25. So far so good.

The new fact is that only 22% of avreichim over the age of 25 leave kollel and join the workforce. 78% of avreichim stay in yeshiva long term, not because they are stuck there because of the army or in order to avoid the army, but because they choose to be there.

Since the national debate over shivyon bnetel, sharing the burden of equal army service, seems to mostly accept, and therefore allow, yeshiva bochurim to learn for at least a few years before they might be required to serve in the army under any plan that might be accepted into law, it seems that this age 25 cutoff for avreichim is probably the most important barometer.

It seems likely that lowering or raising the cutoff age will do little to help, or hurt, anyone. Unless you think that after 25 they are not leaving kollel because at that point they feel stuck with no other realistic options, they are not leaving because they, for the most part, don't want to. They likely wont leave at a younger age either.

If you think they should be encouraged to leave, then you can come up with other programs to try to change the balance, to increase the 22% leaving to join the workforce, but that is already trying to manipulate someone's chosen lifestyle. The debate has always been about pulling out the issue that prevents them from doing what they want, but these numbers indicate they mostly are doing what they want.

The one thing missing that I would like to know from this is if after 25 only 22% leave the yeshiva world - that is between 25 and what age? Is it as soon as they hit 25? Maybe when they hit 28 or 30 or 35 more leave? 25 is still reasonably young enough to go out, join a program to learn a profession or trade and start working, yet they are largely choosing not to. If they are leaving but only at 30 or 35, that would be very different, as starting to learn a profession at that age is already far more difficult.

One of the main arguments always used, and being used now during the current debate about the draft law proposal, against drafting Haredim is that the army does not need them anyway. There are too many soldiers as it is, the army has no need for another few thousand soldiers - soldiers who dont want to be there anyway. So, considering that, the only purpose in forcing a draft of Haredim is an attempt to change their lifestyle. The army and the politicians should just release the Haredim from this obligation.

So goes the argument. One of the most frequently used arguments on this issue.

I have a question about this argument, if you accept the premise that the army does not need them, which I do not know if it is really true or not.

If the attempt to draft the Haredim, or some of the Haredim, is based on the idea of "shivyon bnetel", sharing the burden equally, and the army does not need an additional few thousand soldiers each year, why exempt the Haredim from the draft rather than some equal proportion of young men and women from all sectors of society,m, proportionally?

Meaning, let's say the IDF has 20,000 soldiers and does not need any more soldiers this year. The incoming draft will bring in, if you include all potential draftees (including Haredim), let's say 8000 soldiers, with the army needing, say only 5000.

Why exempt 3000 Haredim from the draft, just because the army doesn't need them? If we want shivyon bnetel, the army could exempt 3000 people from serving but why 3000 specific people from one sector of society - spread it out proportionally among all sectors and exempt 3000 people including some haredim, some DL, some secular, some men, some women, some Druze - a little bit of everybody. This way, according to the argument that the army does not need so many soldiers, the excess of soldiers will be relieved but it will be relieved fairly, with not just one sector benefitting from it but all sectors. Are young Haredi men the only people in the country who do not want to spend 2 or 3 years of their lives in the IDF? Surely among the thousands of draftees every draft cycle there are plenty of young men and women who would prefer to be doing other things for the coming three years and the army could release some of them all.

I do not know if the entire premise is true, that the army does not need them. It might just be a convenient argument that nobody has the information handy to prove or disprove so they just accept it. But even if true, why is the argument - therefore the Haredim should just be exempted - just taken at face value? Why does nobody say, you have a point, and we will talk about exempting x number of soldiers every year, due to lack of need, distributed evenly, or by some fair criterion?

It seems to be a much fairer way to oppose the Haredi exemption than just ignoring the idea of not really needing them and saying shivyon bnetel. When they argue that they aren't needed and should be exempted, their opponents on this issue (ie politicians, media, etc) should make a proposal to accept that concept and discuss an even distribution of exemptions. Why should only one sector of society benefit from this?

The issue of "sharing the burden" will not be on the table if and when I establish the next government

  -- MK Yair Lapid (Yesh Atid)

this might be considered a surprising reversal. Maybe even a surrender - waving the white flag. This was Lapid's calling card. He has taken a lot of heat for saying this. Many of his supporters attacked Lapid for a reversal on this position.

Lapid later released a clarification that he did not mean he is giving up on this issue, but the quote is taken out of context. Lapid explained that he said it is now in the hands of the Supreme Court and whatever the court decides will be acceptable to him.

And listening to the original video (at about the 4:50 minute mark) that is what he said in his original statement, just everyone likes to take a single sentence out of context.

Stern gives a good speech, though I don't agree with everything he says, but that's not why I brought this clip... at about 16:30 Stern takes off his kippa to make a point....

This is surprising. Not!

Kooker is reporting that the Likud wants to include in the new draft law that will be coming to vote tomorrow a clause that will deal with putting down the incitement against Haredi soldiers. this was initially formulated and pushed by the head of the Haredi division of the Likud, Yaakov Vider.

One might think that this is something the Haredi MKs would embrace. They did not even have to do the work for it, yet Haredim, their own constituents, are going to benefit and be protected by this clause.

Yet the Haredi MKs are reportedly opposing the inclusion of this clause. They do not want this clause, fighting the incitement against Haredi soliers, included in the law. They do not explain why and refused to respond, for the meantime.

I don't understand who or what they are trying to protect.

in this film, Uri Zohar deals with the issue of the draft and sharing the burden, Haredim and the IDF

With the government insisting that all coalition members vote along with party discipline, the final draft of the new Draft Law that sets the new guidelines for drafting Haredi yeshiva bochurim was sure to pass with little problem. The fact that the opposition has declared a ban on Knesset proceedings for these few days with all these laws being passed made it even smoother.

The Draft Law passed by a vote of 65 in favor and 1 opposed, with MK Yoni Chetboun (Habayit Hayehudi) breaking ranks and opposing. The Civil Service Law passed with 67 in favor and 1 opposed. Chetboun has put himself at some risk - Habayit Hayehudi had threatened that any MK that breaks ranks will be punished for it - but Chetboun decided to stick to his beliefs anyway and vote against.

The basics of the new are that in these first three years, all haredi boys (above the age of 22) will be granted exemptions (those between 18 and 22 today will be able to defer service and by age 24 can qualify for an exemption), but by 2017 the haredi yeshivas must be sending a minimum quota of 5200 yeshiva students to the IDF (or national/civil service). If the 5200 number is reached, all will continue with the quota being adjusted in subsequent years. If the quota is not reached, then all haredi yeshiva students above the age of 21 will be drafted with the exception of exemptions being granted to a maximum of 1800 "iluyim" - especially talented and bright yeshiva bochurim. All the rest will either be drafted or be put in jail for being AWOL. The new law also extends the service of the hesder yeshivot by an additional month - hesder boys will now serve 17 months in the IDF. As well, the general IDF service will be shortened from 36 months to 32 months.

The way governments come and go in Israel, averaging about 2.5 to 3 years, there is probably a greater chance of this law being repealed or changed in a future government that will include haredi members than there is that it will remain as it passed today. As well, it is expected to be appealed to the Supreme Court. It is not likely that the Supreme Court will knock it down, but anything is possible.

It is a good start, I think. I don't like the criminal sanctions, and there might be some other aspects that I don't like, but overall something needed to be done and this gets the ball rolling. Maybe everyone will see that this more or less is beneficial to everyone and while it might require some future adjusting and amending, it will mostly be accepted. Or maybe not and a future government will knock it down or change it completely.

The haredi community complains about the hesder yeshivot serving less time and they consider it unfair. I don't consider it unfair. There is nothing stopping the haredi community from establishing its own hesder yeshivot whose students will also serve 17 months instead of 32 months (though I think 17 months applies only to those hesder yeshivot already in existence and in the system today, while new ones will serve more - maybe 24 months). They can do this which will allow them to learn more than if they would be drafted straight out and it will let them serve less actual IDF time than getting drafted straight out. I imagine that such haredi hesder yeshivot will start being formed in order to take advantage of those benefits.

When I first heard this on the radio, it sounded a bit funny and even desperate, and even the Haredi radio host was describing it as unbelievable.

The wives of the 18 Haredi MKs have drafted and sent a letter to Mrs. Sara Netanyahu comparing her to Queen Esther and pleading with her to use her influence with her husband to get the new draft law canceled.

In the letter they compare Mrs. Netanyahu to Queen Esther who appealed to her husband the king to save her nation, and they also point out that throughout our history many righteous women were responsible for saving our people. They also paraphrase Esther's famous words of perhaps reaching that point  just for the purpose of saving the Jews at that very time, and it implores her to use her influence to help prevent a tear in the nation and the harming of those who learn Torah.

While such a call seems pointless, one never knows from where the salvation will come. Yes, it sounds desperate, but yes, they are desperate.

It also reminded me of a more famous modern-day Queen Esther. I know someone (and I didn't ask him for permission to mention him so I am not saying his name) who says that Monica Lewinsky was a modern-day Queen Esther.

He points to the fact that Bill Clinton was making a big push to push the Israelis to give up a lot to make a peace deal when the story of his relationship with Lewinsky broke. When Clinton began a press conference to announce progress in the peace negotiations that would have launched more concessions, the first question asked was not about the negotiations, but about the breaking news of Monica Lewinsky. And that put an end to the negotiations, as he got caught up with dealing with that scandal and nobody cared about the Middle East anymore and Clinton didn't have time to deal with it.

So, who knows? Maybe Sara Netanyahu will be the next Queen Esther.

The big, and shocking, news item of the day seems to be the announcement of the Belzer community that they are preparing for a mass "yerida" in the event that the new draft law should pass.

They say they have some senators who have promised to work for them on getting them refugee status, which would allow them entry into the United States.

According to the definition of refugee status, I can see how this can happen. they can make a case for being members of a persecuted social group. Whether the case will be strong enough for the US government to accept it or not remains to be seen, but it looks feasible.

That being said, I wonder what will happen when they become refugees in, let's say, New York City. Will they suddenly discover that the vast majority of their Belzer brethren in the USA already work for a living and aren't in kollels for a very long time? Will they suddenly discover that the government gives welfare, in some places more than others, but in very few places are there mass movements to live off of welfare, because you can't really. Are they going to live in refugee or DP camps? Where will over 7000 families suddenly live? Are there 7000 homes available and open for them? Will they drive the price of rentals through the roof?

They may not have to go to the army, if they move to the USA, but their lifestyles will definitely change.

Besides for that, I am not sure if they think they are making a promise or a threat. While I think all Jews should be in Israel, and it would be disappointing to lose so many Jews back to the Diaspora, it doesn't really harm me or most people personally or directly in any way. It might even bring real estate prices in Jerusalem down a bit.

I am very disappointed in Yesh Atid.. not because of the law they passed regarding the draft, despite my not agreeing with some aspects of it (and probably not even understanding much of it - it is a very major and complex bill), but for another reason. The law is something they had campaigned on, they had promised their voters, they had spoken loudly about - they did their job. They don't need my agreement or approval - they have the power now and they cashed in with their supporters.

The reason I am disappointed in Yesh Atid is because of their reaction to it passing.

Even though the residents of Gush Katif were basically trampled during the Disengagement process and could do very little - everything was imposed on them - the government at least, at least publicly that is, spoke of taking painful steps to do what was necessary, and kept promising that it had to be done but would be done with sensitivity. Even if it was not really all that sensitive, at least there was no gloating. People felt bad for them and sympathized with their plight, even if they felt the "settlers" needed to be evacuated.

Yesh Atid felt this was the solution to a number of ills in Israeli society. They felt this is what needed to be done to fix the problem. Ok. I can handle that, even if I disagree. But at least sympathize a bit with the people whose lives you are changing. All these people, thousands of people, a community comprising hundreds of thousands of people, are now going to be going through a lot of turbulence as their lives change. At least sympathize, while saying this needs to be done. Be sensitive to their concerns.

Celebrating the victory by passing out towelettes that say "when the Haredim go out to work you will have to sweat less", is just gloating. It is insensitive. It is unnecessary. It is downright nasty.

Also, I am not sure why people will work less once other people are working more. Will the work day be shortened to 6 or 7 hours? Are people's mortgages and expenses going to be easier to pay off? I am no economist but I never heard that taking some people off welfare allows for drastic cuts in taxes hat will allow other people to work less. It isn't even true, so why take that approach?

You passed the law. Mazel tov. Now be sensitive, even just a bit, to the people who will be affected and go through some trying times because of it.

For the first time, I actually heard a real response to the question/accusation about how can the new law being passed really be about "shivyon bnetel" when it does not deal with the women who serve less or not at all, nor with the situation of the Arab community that does not serve (for the most part).

Mordechai Lavi was interviewing MK Ofer Shelach (Yesh Atid) on Radio Kol Berama, and the topic was the law being worked and voted on. Lavi asked Shelach, as the question often comes up, how can this be shivyon, equality, when the law does not deal with the Arab sector at all.

Shelach's response was really the first time I heard a real response on the issue. Shelach said that the question that is raised about the Arabs is not a true question and is just used as a way to attack the law. Shelach said that asking the question is an insult to the haredi community - not because it is bad to be an Arab and the question compares the Haredim to Arabs, but because the Arab community has a different issue - they identify, for the most part, with the Palestinian people. They are Israelis, but they also identify with the Palestinians.

With them, Shelach says, there can be no shivyon, no equality. they can't be given the responsibility of serving, because they see themselves, at least in some part, as Palestinians. Comparing the Haredim to the Arabs who are largely in conflict with the State, is an insult to the Haredim.

I find that to be an interesting response. It does not really answer the question completely, because even though Ofer Shelach and Yesh Atid recognize that the Arabs cannot be expected to serve, it does not explain why they cannot do some sort of national or civil service, especially in their own communities.

It does reflect interestingly on how some people view the Israeli Arabs - not really trustworthy at the end of the day, in conflict with the State. That is surprising from Yesh Atid, especially after they originally said they would first deal with the Haredim when working on this law and then they would get to the Arabs - this shows that they don't believe there is an equitable solution for the Arabs.

Two quotes will make it to today's QOTD... and they are on the same topic...

The topic is the law that is in the process of being passed regarding the drafting of Haredim to the IDF.. The first quote is from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and it really only qualifies because until now his voice has not been heard on the issue at all. Since the elections, Netanyahu has kept himself involved almost completely in foreign affairs, and almost not at all in domestic affairs. His comment made during a faction meeting is therefore worthy of consideration. The second gets it because of the implication.

1. I believe we will not come to a situation in which people will sit in jail due to learning Torah.

  -- PM Benjamin Netanyahu


2. It is a shame that the Haredim did not help in passing the draft law prior to the elections. Today the form [of the law being passed] is far worse [than it was then].

  -- MK Zeev Elkin (Likud Beyteynu)

As Elkin points out, the Haredi MKs at time stand on principle and refuse to cooperate, negotiate, discuss, issues that directly affect the Haredi community, just because participating in the discussion makes them look like they agree with the need. As a result of this policy, the people they represent suffer (from their perspective)...

It seems the big showdown regarding the new law being prepared for the army draft of yeshiva students is coming down to the issue of what type of sanctions will there be against those who refuse the draft and go AWOL.

Lapid is strong-arming the push for criminal sanctions, meaning anybody AWOL will have to go to jail and be treated like a criminal. Bennet, Shaked, and others are pushing, seemingly not too strongly, for economic sanctions, meaning anybody AAWOL will lose budgets, subsidies, and funding.

I really prefer not having criminal sanctions, because I think the impetus for change and for bringing more yeshiva boys into the army will not come about as a result of forcing the issue, throwing them in jail (or threatening to), and the like - I think this will only reverse any actually progress (at least in the short term) and make the societal conflict even greater.

However, the problem I see is, how can you possibly not impose criminal sanctions when you have a mandatory draft?

I mean, if everyone who is drafted into the IDF knows that going AWOL will put him at risk of being thrown into the brig, why should haredi boys be different. A haredi boy can go AWOL and lose some government funding for the school he attends or mortgage benefits, while a non-haredi boy goes AWOL and ends up in prison. When working for "shivyon b'netel", I don't see how a different punishment can justifiably be defined for the same action by people from different sectors.

And, if criminal sanctions are not imposed, but only economic, when a secular boy goes AWOL, why should he be thrown in jail - he should also only suffer economic sanctions? Or, perhaps he can right then and there declare that he is haredi and must only suffer from economic sanctions?

While I do not like criminal sanctions, I do not see how it can be justified, in the context of a law defining equality of service, anything but.

If you do understand it, please explain.

The Committee for Shivyon B'Netel today decided to approve the suggestion that Chabadniks who serve around the world as shlichim will be considered as if they are doing civil service.

There is already a format by which Israelis performing service around the world on behalf of the State of Israel are considered as if they are doing civil service, and now Chabad is being added to the list as an approved form of service. The criteria for this will be determined by the committee, and any yeshiva student meeting that criteria in his shlichus will receive the new status.

MK Elazar Stern said that the Chabad shlichim do a very important job around the world, voluntarily, and until now have not received recognition from the State of Israel for those efforts. The shliach out there doing his work should know that he is now a representative of the State of Israel. Stern also said that another achievement of this is that they will now have forged a connection between Chabad and the State of Israel, and the shlichus of the Rebbe will also now be seen by them as shlichus for Israel.

Stern had reservations because, even though Chabad has a large and strong presence in Israel and is very connected to Israel, the Rebbe sent boys out on shlichus around the world, but did not encourage going to Israel. Stern sees this as a way of strengthening that aspect of the connection between Chabad and Israel.

We all know the stories of how the Chabad shliach, doing great work in far-flung places around the world, is very often the actual representative of Israel, acting as a de facto embassy, helping people in trouble, and taking care of people in need. This solidifies that representation.

Will all the yeshiva bochurim suddenly run to become Chabadniks? not likely. You dont qualify as a civil servant just by being Chabad, but by being a Chabad shliach meeting set criteria... not everyone wants to live in far-away countries or cities, often with very few Jews, let alone other religious Jews... and the work itself is not easy either. These boys do phenomenal work around the world, and they deserve this new status.

A very strange demand was made yesterday in the meeting of the Knesset Committee for Sharing the Burden (led by MK Ayelet Shaked). They were working out details of the new law being formulated, and MKs Moshe Gafni and Meir Porush demanded that the number of hours required of married kollel avreichim (not unmarried students) to learn Torah be cut from 45 hours weekly to 35 hours weekly. the committee compromised on 40 hours.
(Source: NRG)

Very strange that the haredi representatives demanded less Torah learning.

To their credit they explained that despite the number of hours required being less, the avreichim would not change their schedules and would still learn much more than required, because that's how it works in yeshiva/kollel.

I have not seen any explanation of why they demanded less hours required - perhaps to minimize governmental control over Torah learning, perhaps to ease the tension on an avreich who might come up short one week due to external issues (illness, family problems, etc). I don't know what it is, but they must have a reason rather than just to lessen Torah learning.

I do wonder if rosh kollels, who are strapped for money and overburdened with fundraising responsibilities, will say to their avreichim that they are paying less because the official hours are now going to be shorter.

Hiddush lodged a complaint with the change in hours required. Funnily enough they said that demanding the lessening of the hours required turns the Haredi MKs into the main opponents of Torah learning in Israel. They also said "after years of telling us how important torah learning is for the security of the state, they are now trying to cut a quarter of torah learning of the avreichim, and they compromised on cutting an eighth... We are talking about 200,000 hours of torah learning per 1000 avreichim. It is hard to think of something more cynical than this.. the haredi MKs keep telling us that the avreichim "kill themselves day and night in the world of torah. Now the tuth is exposed - the fight against sharing the burden is not for torah learning but just to prevent haredi males from being drafted"

Gafni did not make it illegal for them to learn that number of hours, just made them only obligated in a smaller number. Just like the entire draft issue is not making it illegal to learn Torah - just at certain times, certain people will need to go to the army - but they can learn before and after, and other people can learn, and therefore the draft issue is not making Torah learning illegal, as some claim, neither is this.

While I disagree with the statement made by Hiddush, I do find the demand made by the Haredi MKs to be strange..

The Knesset Committee for Sharing the Burden met today to discuss details of the new draft law for drafting haredim and leaving in place an annual quota of 1800 especially talented students who would be granted exemptions.

According to reports, in an interesting move, after MK Gafni had threatened to pull the haredi parties representatives out of the committee and to no longer participate in what is a farcical process, MK Gafni declared that the committee should actually abandon the quota - meaning, everyone should be drafted with no exception and no exemptions.

Gafni said, dont do us any favors, we do not need your quotas. The Torah World will continue without you just fine.

Gafni also said that putting such a quota in place and requiring rosh yeshivas to decide which students are considered the elite would not pass legal muster and is not actually possible. So, Gafni claims it is a law that is not legal.

I like Gafni because he has interesting arguments. This qualifies as a head-scratcher - cancel the quota, we don't need your help. Gafni always has unusual arguments.

I do not know why such a quota would be not legal. Society has quotas in place all the time. Affirmative action quotas (which the haredim have even requested at times, among other minority groups), quotas for school acceptance, etc... maybe it is specifically having the rosh yeshiva be the one responsible for selecting who qualifies that is the problem. But that is surely a better solution than having an army clerk or a misrad hachinuch clerk make that determination!

Just like 9 out of 10 soldiers in the IDF are not combat soldiers and still are considered to be defending the State of Israel, so too those who learn Torah are also defending the Nation of Israel. From my perspective, anybody who is not learnign Torah day and night should be drafted.

  -- MK Moshe Gafni (UTJ), during discussion in committee dealing with the details of the laws for equality of service..

MK Porush also spoke about those not learning full time going to the army and the Haredi MKs do not protect them. Their big concern is that even if everyone not learning full time would go to the army, and those who are learning full time would stay in yeshiva, they might very well not meet the quotas stated in the current version of the law and they would be forced to pull people out of yeshiva - people who really are learning full time.