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Mar 3, 2011
Destroying A Wedding
The ashkenazification of the sefardi community has reached new levels. I dont know if the new incident is any more serious than people changing names to get kids into schools, but it seems to me to be worse, as this is something being imposed rather than being a personal choice.
Kikar and Bechadrei are both reporting an incident that took place the other day at a wedding.
The wedding was of a sefardi groom and a sefardi bride, and therefore, as would be expected, the wedding proceedings followed the sefardic customs. One of the customs common at sefardi weddings is that after the chupa the chosson and kallah do not go to a yichud room, as they do by ashkenazim, but they continue with the wedding, and yichud only happens later, when they go home.
At this wedding, the chosson and kallah began dancing with their friends immediately after the chuppa, rather than going to a yichud room. The Rosh Yeshiva, a young sefardi rosh yeshiva of an ashkenazi yeshiva, told the chosson that they must go right into the yichud room, as per the minhag of the yeshiva. When it was made clear that the chosson was planning on acting in accordance with the family minhagim, as per the agreement of both families, the rosh yeshiva announced that he and all the boys from the yeshiva would be leaving and refuse to participate in the wedding.
The chosson was very disappointed and shamed when the rosh yeshiva and his friends left. Kikar has a recording of an interview with Rav Raphael Cohen, a rav from Tzfat who is a relative of the chosson, describing the events.
The situation was not a total disaster, as some quick thinking people, including Rav Cohen, and they arranged bpys from a local yeshiva, under the auspices of Rav Yitzchak Yosef, to leave the yeshiva and join the wedding of rejoice with the chosson and kallah.
Kikar and Bechadrei are both reporting an incident that took place the other day at a wedding.
The wedding was of a sefardi groom and a sefardi bride, and therefore, as would be expected, the wedding proceedings followed the sefardic customs. One of the customs common at sefardi weddings is that after the chupa the chosson and kallah do not go to a yichud room, as they do by ashkenazim, but they continue with the wedding, and yichud only happens later, when they go home.
At this wedding, the chosson and kallah began dancing with their friends immediately after the chuppa, rather than going to a yichud room. The Rosh Yeshiva, a young sefardi rosh yeshiva of an ashkenazi yeshiva, told the chosson that they must go right into the yichud room, as per the minhag of the yeshiva. When it was made clear that the chosson was planning on acting in accordance with the family minhagim, as per the agreement of both families, the rosh yeshiva announced that he and all the boys from the yeshiva would be leaving and refuse to participate in the wedding.
The chosson was very disappointed and shamed when the rosh yeshiva and his friends left. Kikar has a recording of an interview with Rav Raphael Cohen, a rav from Tzfat who is a relative of the chosson, describing the events.
The situation was not a total disaster, as some quick thinking people, including Rav Cohen, and they arranged bpys from a local yeshiva, under the auspices of Rav Yitzchak Yosef, to leave the yeshiva and join the wedding of rejoice with the chosson and kallah.
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Such Achdus, "my way or the highway"
ReplyDeleteas has been said before, the greatest destroyer of mesorah and family minhagim - more than Hitler - has been the yeshiva system....
Have these people not heard of the halacha that embarrassing someone is like killing them? This story turned my stomach. I hope the chosson never sets foot in that yeshiva again.
ReplyDeleteThere's a warm place in Gehinnom for that rosh yeshivah and his boys.
ReplyDeleteAs for the chosson, his ancestors in Heaven are probably getting more merit for having a descendant willing to stick by the family minhag.
What on Earth was the Rosh Hayeshiva thinking? Why would he even have a "hava amina" to think that the minhag should follow the building rather than the family? Never mind that it would override the prohibition of embarrassing someone in public. How can this fellow be qualified to run a yeshivah? This is "zil kri bei rav."
ReplyDeleteand everyone in this picture acknowledges it's all about minhag??
ReplyDeleteso weird.
it is not really just a minhag. it is based on halacha, the opinion of the rambam.
ReplyDeleteThat is SO disgusting. Utterly disgusting. I agree with all the previous commenters.
ReplyDeleteLike I've said before, the chilonim took away the Sefardi simanim (peyot), but the [Ashkenazy] Charedim took away the rest [of their religion].
Meanwhile, there were 2 follow-up articles on Kikar about it.
ReplyDeleteRav Ovadia invited the groom and his family to his home.
Rav Hayim Amsallem mentions it in his pro-Sepharadi rant.
the worst of it is that the Rosh Yeshiva who made the fuss was originally sefardi (but obviously doesn't think much of that background nowadays)
ReplyDeleteThere are (at least) 2 different Sefardi Minhagim.
ReplyDeleteOne minhag is to leave the Yichud for after the wedding. A second minhag is that in order to prevent hefsek the choson and kallah must run to the yichud room after the huppah.
what's worse than the actual story? go read the comments in hebrew. people are calling the chosson a rasha and that he will be severly punished.
ReplyDeleteUNREAL
Do you think there might be a connection between the open rift between Ashkenazim (Emanuel, hareidi educational bias, Rav Yosef) and Sephardim (Rav Elyashiv vs Rav Yosef &the conversion issue) vis-a-vis the outbreak and rebellion of Israel's neighbors? Noting that one preceded the other.
ReplyDeleteDisrespect for customs is outrageous, and that a Rabbi representative of a Torah institution should NOT act in accordance with, "the ways of the Torah are ways of pleasantness" should warrant his dismissal.
What do you think?
Rav Ovadia is very harsh against Sephardim who have adopted the practise of their Ashkenazi Yeshivas by having a Yichud room. Sphardim don't do it because it is not tzniut.
ReplyDelete>Sphardim don't do it because it is not tzniut.
ReplyDeleteYou should read Shemuel Romanelli's account of a wedding in Morrocco in his Masa Be-arav, which took place in the late 1780s. In his opinion, the entire crowd standing around and waiting for the couple to consummate their union, and then display the bed cloth to show that it is bloody was not particularly snioud.
The R"Y has a right to refuse to participate in a ceremony he believes isn't properly following halacha. (Even if there are other valid shittos that disagree with him and hold it is a proper ceremony.)
ReplyDelete---------------------
I further note the source of this "story" are some internet reports. The facts and details could widely differ from the report by both false inclusion and exclusion of relevant points, even assuming there is any basis to this story at all.
----------------------
If the story indeed occurred, is it possible that the R"Y and the Choson had implicitly or explicitly agreed beforehand that the R"Y only attends weddings on the condition that certain minhagim he holds of are adhered to? (And that the Choson is free to conduct his wedding otherwise -- sans the R"Y presence.)
Perhaps the Choson "pulled a fast one" thinking he could get away with it once the R"Y is already there? Or perhaps there was a change in plans for a legitimate reason, but (for whatever reason) the R"Y was not informed of it beforehand, despite his conditional attendance.
Sam,
ReplyDelete"melabein p'nei chabairoh b'rabim" is a machlokes in the gemorah if it is a "yeharog v'al ya'avor". of all chumros one could possibly follw, this would certainly be a good one. regardless of any possible aqgreement made with the RY, once a situation happens, the issur of embarrassing takes precedence as long as there is a valid halachik opinion being followed.
the ry could have just "disappeared" quietly and not made a stinkk. the fact that he caused a public ruckus shows that he was completely unconcerned for the chosson and the whole issue was about himself. that is intolerable and a poor example of how frum people should behave, especially a RY.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Shaya - even if the RY disagreed and therefore wouldn't participate in any part of the ceremony, there is a way to do things when you're an adam gadol.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the RY was in line for inspection the day of that shmooze in his own yeshiva days.....
Kavod HaTorah is an important factor. If the Choson agreed to adhere to the R"Y's rules before the wedding, and then publicly defied him at the wedding, the R"Y is obligated to stand up for Kavod HaTorah.
ReplyDelete---------------------
I just saw an eyewitness report from the wedding in question over here. It says:
Rather impolite to tell a story without portraying the facts.
My brother-in-law was at the wedding, The chattan was a talmud of the Yeshiva, but on really shaky ground. He was a trouble maker. To impress the the Kallah's family he begged the Rosh Yeshiva to be mesadar kedushin. The R"Y agreed but had a few stipulations first if he was to be mesadar the chupah/kiddushin would be held in accordance to to regular yeshiva minhag. (not with his personal but rather set minhag of the yeshiva)
The bocher after pleading and promising, refused in front of the crowd to follow instructions. The R"Y gently reminded the Chatan of his promise, to which the Chatan smirked and laughed.
At this point the R"Y felt that as Kavod haTorah to the yeshiva and his position at teh yeshiva, it would be best if he and the rest of the talmidim left.
Shame on you Wolf for spreading Lashon hara on Klal Yisroel.
Kavod HaTorah is an important factor. If the Choson agreed to adhere to the R"Y's rules before the wedding, and then publicly defied him at the wedding, the R"Y is obligated to stand up for Kavod HaTorah.
ReplyDelete---------------------
I just saw an eyewitness report from the wedding in question over here. It says:
Rather impolite to tell a story without portraying the facts.
My brother-in-law was at the wedding, The chattan was a talmud of the Yeshiva, but on really shaky ground. He was a trouble maker. To impress the the Kallah's family he begged the Rosh Yeshiva to be mesadar kedushin. The R"Y agreed but had a few stipulations first if he was to be mesadar the chupah/kiddushin would be held in accordance to to regular yeshiva minhag. (not with his personal but rather set minhag of the yeshiva)
The bocher after pleading and promising, refused in front of the crowd to follow instructions. The R"Y gently reminded the Chatan of his promise, to which the Chatan smirked and laughed.
At this point the R"Y felt that as Kavod haTorah to the yeshiva and his position at teh yeshiva, it would be best if he and the rest of the talmidim left.
Shame on you Wolf for spreading Lashon hara on Klal Yisroel.