Nov 10, 2011
Interesting Psak from Rav Chaim Kanievsky: Changing Sunset
Living in a mountainous region has its challenges. one of those challenges is walking places, as almost everywhere you go, at least in one of the directions, is going to be uphill. It's great for getting into shape, if you walk a lot, but it is a lot of effort.
One of the religious challenges of living in such a neighborhood is dealing with sunrise and sunset. In one neighborhood, the higher part of the neighborhood might have one time for sunset/sunrise, and the lower part might have an earlier or later time for sunset/sunrise. This has even "created" the new version of the sunrise minyan - calendars now publish two daily sunrise times - one, the old version, being the actual sunrise time, and the second, called Netz haNireh, being the time the sunrise is actually seen over the mountain. (I say created, but that is not really accurate. The opinion to prefer such a distinction has been around a long time, but has only become popular in recent years.)
The city of Elad has such a situation, and sent an interesting question to Rav Chaim Kanievsky because of it. They said there is a 2 minute discrepancy between sunset in the higher part of the neighborhood and sunset in the lower part. The question asked was should they make an official time for sunset in the whole area, using the earlier time l'chumra, and that would cause some people to respect nightfall 2 minutes earlier than it actually is, or should they not make a unified time and wherever someone is that is what he or she would respect as nightfall?
The ramifications to such a question are numerous - Shabbos in and out times and when someone can and cannot perform melacha, when the nightly davening services can start, scheduling a bris based on when a baby is born - if he is born during that two minute gap, and probably many more situations.
Rav Chaim Kanievsky decided that they should keep in Elad one unified time for sunset, using the time that is earlier by two minutes, l'chumra.
They obviously cannot use the later time as the unified time, as people on top would end up possibly doing melacha on Shabbos, for example, because of it. To take a unified time could only mean using the earlier time.
The psak was given for Elad, but it makes sense that it should be the relevant equally in any area that is hilly and has to deal with similar discrepancies.
Source: Ladaat
One of the religious challenges of living in such a neighborhood is dealing with sunrise and sunset. In one neighborhood, the higher part of the neighborhood might have one time for sunset/sunrise, and the lower part might have an earlier or later time for sunset/sunrise. This has even "created" the new version of the sunrise minyan - calendars now publish two daily sunrise times - one, the old version, being the actual sunrise time, and the second, called Netz haNireh, being the time the sunrise is actually seen over the mountain. (I say created, but that is not really accurate. The opinion to prefer such a distinction has been around a long time, but has only become popular in recent years.)
The city of Elad has such a situation, and sent an interesting question to Rav Chaim Kanievsky because of it. They said there is a 2 minute discrepancy between sunset in the higher part of the neighborhood and sunset in the lower part. The question asked was should they make an official time for sunset in the whole area, using the earlier time l'chumra, and that would cause some people to respect nightfall 2 minutes earlier than it actually is, or should they not make a unified time and wherever someone is that is what he or she would respect as nightfall?
Rav Chaim Kanievsky decided that they should keep in Elad one unified time for sunset, using the time that is earlier by two minutes, l'chumra.
They obviously cannot use the later time as the unified time, as people on top would end up possibly doing melacha on Shabbos, for example, because of it. To take a unified time could only mean using the earlier time.
The psak was given for Elad, but it makes sense that it should be the relevant equally in any area that is hilly and has to deal with similar discrepancies.
Source: Ladaat
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This has taharas hamishpacha ramifications. Each person must ask his own PERSONAL shaila; no one is authorized to ask on someone else's behalf and an answer to one is not binding on all.
ReplyDeletewouldn't be relevant for a bris - if a baby were born locally (as opposed to the hospital) no one there would be looking at the clock.
ReplyDeleteand what of alot, misheyakir...? And what of davening in the empire state building?
ReplyDeleteKT
Joel Rich
If they're using the lower zman which is earlier, wouldn't people on top of the hill be doing melacha on motzei shabbos before it's tzeis there?
ReplyDeleteSounds like simple common sense to me - but, then again, who am I to argue with the Rav?
ReplyDeleteIN general the time of astronomical sunset (about when you can see 3 stars) is not going to be that different with changes in the local horizon.
ReplyDeleteIt is also my experience that the time that is published for when shabbat ends is normally about 10 minutes after stars start poping into view.