well i agreed with everything you said until the last paragraph. i don't understand what you mean by that.

i am not ok with presuming his innocence under any circumstance knowing how much courage it must have taken for these innocent children and their parents to go the distance with these accusations (basically making them a target for shunning from a community they don't want to leave).

Please clarify.

Thanks

I mean by it that while it might happen all over the world, and all over the world the administrators of the schools act the same why - sweeping it under the rug, hoping it will go away, try to avoid publicizing anything so it will not ruin their good name, etc. Basically everyone kind of tries to keep it quiet.

My last line says that because we claim to be better and more moral than everyone else, while the problem is not unique to us, we have to respond differently and remove the dangers to the children. We cannot respond the same way other administrators do and allow it to be kept quiet and pushed to the side.

No, this is a charedi problem because as you said yourself:

"because the school is a private school there is no Misrad Chinuch jurisdiction, they are limited in what they can do"

It means that they think they don't the State of Israel's rules, it means they think their rules (halacha, gedolim etc) can handle educational policy much better.

OK, so here we have it and it's not working.

Halachot of lashon hara obviously aren't set up to protect little kids. Guaranteeing the melamed's parnassa is more important.

Higher standards?

ok then! sounds good to me.

yasher koach for publicizing this btw.

Wishing the New Year brings comfort to all the innocent victims, wherever they are. (Brooklyn NY too!)

As a huge fan of some of the Rabbanim involved in this case, I am very disturbed at how they reinstated the teacher until now. Rafi, any answers?

rbser - as far as I know, the rabbonim are not at all involved. the school makes its own decisions. Look - one rav came out strongly against what the school has done and the school at best ignores him and at worst openly opposes him making up all sorts of stories why it is not a problem.

So 1. they make their own decisions and 2. they do not listen to opposing opinion.

I do not know who has influence with the school, but whomever does should perhaps be contacted to consider the options the school refuses to consider.

sorry rafi, this is a chareidi problem.

you can't constantly claim "holier than everyone else" status constantly, and then behave like every other person when there's a problem. Do I understand the human nature aspect of it? absolutely. but the chareidim cannot have it both ways. I am normally greater than you, but when I screw up, treat me like a regular yokel. UHUH! you hold yourselves to a higher standard, then behave that way, and expect to be treated that way. Moshe rabbeinu never said "let me into EY because everyone else would have hit the rock". no, he simply kept begging for forgiveness, but never excuses.

shaya - overall that is exactly what I said. When I said it is not a haredi problem, I meant the fact that there is a (alleged) molester teaching in school. That happens all over.

The issue is the reaction. And on that, you said exactly what i said..

"all over the world the administrators of the schools act the same why - sweeping it under the rug, hoping it will go away, try to avoid publicizing anything so it will not ruin their good name, etc. Basically everyone kind of tries to keep it quiet."

Sorry, this might have been the reaction in the 1950's, but you would be hard pressed to find a mainstream school that would react in such a way, EXCEPT outside of the charedi community. The rug-sweeping response is the quintessential charedi response, and it comes from the belief you described, that you are the elite and it couldn't possibly happen in your community. And thus children continue to suffer the most in charedi communities because you are so slow to respond to the threat of molesters. Because parnassa is more important than their safety, as R' Soloveitchik stated so obviously.

Even the responses of the previous post were astounding in their inability to see the most obvious response- to simply remove their children from the school!

So i really disagree. Yes, molesters are in every community. But almost no modern communities would respond this way. I can't think of any parent that would leave their children in a school with an accused child molester and I don't think any modern school would leave such a teacher in a classroom alone with children.

The charedi community has a long way to go in catching up with the rest of the world.

sorry, that should read "EXCEPT inside the charedi community"

commenters in other threads, on Jameels (or was it yours?)for example mentioned other cases -a university in england, a school in NY, and others in which alleged molesters were ignored for a long time until they no longer could and their hands were forced.

Rafi.g wrote
"as far as I know, the rabbonim are not at all involved. the school makes its own decisions. Look - one rav came out strongly against what the school has done and the school at best ignores him and at worst openly opposes him"

As far as the school ignoring/opposing a local Rav. There were quite a few highly respected Rabbanim involved with Yishrei Lev who were closely involved with details of the case who didn't come out strongly against the Rebbe in question. They also didn't oppose Torat Eliyhau hiring him.

The school has no obligation to follow R. Soloveitchik - esp. when many other respected Rabbanim didn't agree with him. (BTW these Rabbanim may also not agree with various people at Lemaan Achai and writers in these blogs.) The school probably based their original decision to hire this Rebbe based on 7 very positive years of experience with this Rebbe without any accusations.

We should all be careful not to defame an institution who cares greatly about the welfare of their students. We can argue with their decisions but let's not defame the whole school.

Lets see the upcoming developments. If the tzav harchaka will include teaching in Torat Eliyhau they obviously will be forced to follow that.

I have been following this story with ever increasing concern and shock.

Rafi, your aticle is masterfully fair handed of the school's position vs the fact and ethics of this case.

But how does one even begin to defend the school's series of lies and deceits?!

Do I understand correctly that, after the accusations were made by kids via their parents to the Police that this teacher had molested them, Torat Eliyahu nevertheless chose to employ the alledged molester?

And that Torat Eliyahu initially justified this position by claiming that there WERE NO accusations?

And later admitted that, Yes there WERE accusations, but the school (that's right, the school) had done a "full investigation" of the alledged crimes, and found the teacher "entirely innocent"?

And later, as the public outcry started, the school further protected their position by pouring scorn and counter-accusations at (of all people) the parents of the alledgedly abused kids?

And then, Torat Eliyahu have defended their position by saying that because they have received no OFFICIAL notification of the investigation or accusations, they will not relate "merely" to "rumors" by taking any precautionary measures whatsoever?

And now, as the tzav harchaka/restraining order (Official Notification!) has been issued, the school are defending their position by pointing to a TYPO in the text ("Yisrei Lev", which no longer exists, vs. "Torat Eliyahu" where the alledged perp now has access to both potential future victims and to his possible past victims)?!

When will Torat Eliyahu finally face up to and admit their gross errors, and remove this teacher from potentially putting other children at risk?!

When will they allow a third party to investigate the possibility that other kids were hurt by this teacher, during his many years teaching at Torat Eliyahu?

When will Torat Eliyahu openly encourage other kids to speak up, and other parents to listen to their kids, and report any past alledged misdemeanors by this (or indeed other) teachers?

And when will the parents at Torat Eliyahu finally WAKE UP !! and acknowledge their school has made a big-time error, and that the parents now insist upon immediate firm positive action, and in the future, to such serious criminal allegation?

Or that the parents simply reach (obvious) conclusions, and remove their kids forthwith.

What is it about Chareidi culture (and maybe others - I don't know others) to cover-up, deny, blame others, and lie rather than take simple steps to protect children??

The reason, Rafi, that the chareidi population and RBS in particular, is becoming a magnet for abusers, is because the abusers know they will be over-trusted, under-validated/supervised, and, if they get caught, the Chareidi estasblishment will cover for them.

They DO IT because they know they CAN.

WAKE UP PARENTS!
WAKE UP TORAT ELIYAHU!
WAKE UP RABBONIM (aside from Rav Soloveichik)!
WAKE UP RBS!!!

(And thank you Rafi - for having the guts to carry this ghastly tale on your blog).

rbser - as far as I know, the rabbonim are not at all involved.

Weren't rabbis CM and EK involved in deciding to let him teach until now?

rbser - I am not aware of them having been asked their opinion nor of their saying they support him being hired by the new school. If they did, it is news to me. As far asI know, they have been uninvolved in the story ever since the moment they gave the ok to go to the police with the story. As a matter of fact, one of them told me he is no longer involved because it is now a police matter and not shayach to him anymore.

sidelines - one known case makes it a magnet? are there more such cases in the neighborhood?

A basic question, as frum Jews, that has to be addressed is what is the appropriate halachic response in these situations.

Based on any rumor is a school obligated to immediately fire/suspend the teacher to protect innocent children and maybe ruin the teacher him and his family for life? If there are numerous rumors does it change the approach? Can any child/person start an internet rumor and ruin someone?

Is anyone aware of any written teshuvas that attempts to give guidelines in similar cases?

Rafi- today there might be isolated cases where ignoring still exists. But certainly in the US, their litigious culture wouldn't stand for a suspected child molester staying in a classroom with children for more then half a second.

But this is a standard charedi response- ignore the issue until the number of victims are too great to ignore. And then continue to dodge till it's no longer legally/morally feasible. There is just no cheshbon nefesh on the part of the charedi community when it comes to these issues. If there were, even the slightest amount, we wouldn't be having this conversation in 2008. The cases of Kolko and Mondrowitz would have at least taught the community something about accountability and safeguards for children.

I know that at least one Rav supported this rebbe going back into the class in Yishrei Lev!

How do I know? I was a parent in the class that was asked if we would allow the rebbe to come back in.

These rabbonim are far from "uninvolved".

"Based on any rumor is a school obligated to immediately fire/suspend the teacher to protect innocent children and maybe ruin the teacher him and his family for life?"

Employing him OUTSIDE the class could have prevented this.

"Can any child/person start an internet rumor and ruin someone?"

I hardly think that 3-4 seven year olds got together to conspire.

That's paranoia if I've ever heard it.

The Problem is not just that Some Rabbis forgo protecting the children in favor of protecting the Rebbi. It is also the weaklings of the community who claim to be protecting children are actually coddling up to the Agudah rabbis in their city so that theyy dont have to bear the brunt of Critisizm. Haemtza.blogspot.com is a perfect example. Here is a Rabbi (A talmid of, Rabbi Feurst of the Aggudah, an Orginization much like that in Ramat Beit Shemesh when it comes to Protecting children from abuse) who claims to be in Favor of protecting children but Publicly defames Rabbis (Such as, asintrestingly enough Rabbi Chiam's younger brother Rabbi Moshe Soloveichik) and Lay Leaders who take a stand. I might ask what has the writer of this blog Done To Protect Our City from these Preditors, Do you Publish the name of the Molesters, How do we know who to Avoide, If you Dont it is Unhelpful Gossip. I do not know who this person is and I have Four Children, how can I know if he is not involved with my kids if I don't know who he is.

Frank J

BTW these Rabbanim may also not agree with various people at Lemaan Achai and writers in these blogs

Not agree with people at Lema'an Achai?

Oh so I guess that Lema'an Achai's tzedaka and chesed isn't good enough for them either?

We are in trouble!

anonymous at 5:38 PM said:
"Oh so I guess that Lema'an Achai's tzedaka and chesed isn't good enough for them either?"

Lema'an Achai is a wonderful communty organization and does tremendous good.

However, while their opinion should be treated with respect their approach in this particular case is certainly not binding on other Rabbanim and institutions in the neighborhood.

I know this is a heated topic but let's all stay calm and think clearly.

Reader may be also interested to see this for further coverage of this RBS scandal:-

http://theunorthodoxjew.blogspot.com/

I really don't see why anyone is shocked by the behavior of the school. Just take a look at Torah Temimah (Brooklyn) and how they covered up YEARS and YEARS of allegations of abuse. It makes me sick to my stomach.

Do you see Torah Temimah closing down? Do you see parents taking their kids out in droves?

NO YOU DON'T

I just don't think that our community has any clue how to digest something of this nature. Apparently they prefer to just pretend it doesn't exist and hope it goes away....(as long as it's not MY kid)

There is something seriously wrong here...!

Rafi - you asked me:

"sidelines - one known case makes it a magnet? are there more such cases in the neighborhood?"

Unfortunately, I am aware of several other cases of child abuse, incest and prostitution in RBS A.

You haven't heard about them, because leaders in the community have chosen to keep them all quiet.

Yes - this case is unusual in that it has been refered to the police, and the public is gradually becoming aware of it. Otherwise, unfortunately, it is not unusual at all.

This is probably not coincidence.

Interestingly, the Church (lehavdil) have also been bashed with more-than-their-fair-share of these cases. This is because they are typically trusting, loving communities, with amateurs/clerics trying to play social services & policemen. They therefore attract pedophiles etc who enjoy easy pickings.

Sound familiar?

Hopefully, this case can be a turning point in our community's 'traditional' sweep-it-under-the-carpet/denial/blamethevictims response and attitude to serious crimes "bein adam lechavero".

"I know this is a heated topic but let's all stay calm and think clearly."

Whenever these threads start, someone eventually jumps in with this gem. Why is it wrong to get excited and unnerved by the thought of innocent children being harmed and the school/parent body looking the other way?

I wonder if you'd make the same call if the suspect in question was the non-Jewish janitor in the school.

commenter abbi said:
Whenever these threads start, someone eventually jumps in with this gem. Why is it wrong to get excited ...

The reason why it is important to stay calm and not get excited is usually when people get excited they often don't think clearly and say and do things they may regret later. (aitsa tova - think 3x before you blog)

One should definitely be quite perturbed if these accusations are true. One should also be perturbed if these accusations are not true and the Rebbe is really innocent.

anon-

You didn't respond to my question about whether you'd make the same call for calm if the suspect was the non-Jewish janitor.

No, I disagree completely when the lives and health of children are at stake. Firm, decisive action must be taken to protect children immediately whenever accusations are made. You don't wait for a tzav harchaka from the police before you protect the children in the school (or your own children for Gd's sake).

The school/community is worried about the suspected teacher's parnassa? Suspend him with pay, have him work outside of the school away from children. There is absolutely no excuse for the behavior of the charedi community when it comes to child molestation. It happens again and again and again and I'm really tired of reading the same "concerns" for about the possible innocence of perverted predators.

And to be perfectly honest, if 7 year old children actually get up the courage to report such behavior, the likelihood of it being untrue is slim to none. Please name one example of a molestation report in the frum community that finally became public that turned out to be untrue, either here or in the US.

"Please name one example of a molestation report in the frum community that finally became public that turned out to be untrue, either here or in the US."

Example see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Aviner
As a result his opponents have also republished accusations of sexual abuse. These accusations were published originally in Maariv. As a result of the uproar following the publication the newspaper appointed an independent investigator who came to the conclusion that Rabbi Aviner was innocent, though maybe guilty of practicing therapy without the backing of a professional. The expert also said that the Rabbi's intentions were honorable. After that Maariv published a retraction.

This is one example there are others. (And please don't let this become a back and forth on R. Aviner.) This is a good example of exaggeration and charedi bashing that I feel is wrong. Every group has flaws but let's minimize the overall attacks.

I have no problem with a call for action. I do have a problem with public bashing of the whole charedi community.

That was a case that only involved adults. I challenge you to find a case of child molestation that was untrue.

Sorry, the charedi bashing is fully deserved because the community consistently refuses to deal with child molestation in a way that effectively protects children from predators. Each time a case comes up, people are always more concerned about the rebbe's parnassa and not enough concern is mustered up for children's basic safety.

This is goes against all norms currently in place in modern western society.

Rav Aviner is not a chareidi Rav. He is the Rav of Bet EL. ..

The case did not involve children.
I will not go into details but

please do not quote cases that you know nothing about ....

As a parent of one of the several children who spoke up I take strong issue with any notion of the children making this up or conspiring against the rebbe.

My child and my family adored this rebbe. We lauded his teaching and what he accomplished with the kids.

As a matter of fact when our son first told us we were in a state of denial.

But our seichel quickly kicked in. How could a 7 year old, not exposed to TV, movies, etc. "invent" such graphic details about what his rebbe did? My son was hurt, confused and betrayed by the very man whom he had adored and respected.

None the less we remained cautious. We informed the school and spoke to rabbonim. Of course we withdrew our son from the school.

I was appalled by the reaction of certain rabbonim to "contain" this within the Charedi community or to allow the rebbe back in as my son was out of the class anyhow.

Someone betrayed our identity to the rebbe's wife and others who then went on a vicious campaign to defame our family and discredit our 7 year old son.

This turned out to be a brocha as other parents who children were victimized approached us. Some of them had the couage to go to the authorities while others remain afraid of the backlash and threats that would occur as had happened to us.

We never wanted to see this man destroyed. We just wanted to see other children safe and protected from a possible danger.

He could have been employed in many other ways than in the classroom. His educational skills could be used for consulting or preparation of materials.

The only ones responsible for damaging him here are those who insist he remain in the classroom. By being stubborn and allowing him into a classroom you raise the ire of those who truly wish to protect children from harm.

It is those who refuse to even consider the risk who are actually destroying this man and his family.

previous poster (parent of victim) - wow. thank you for posting. I cannot imagine what you are going through.

My thoughts are with your son.

I think we need to clarify one thing. I could not care less about the 'parnassa' of this molester. That is the responsibility of his family and friends.

Let them worry about paying his bills. NOT YOU and NOT I.

It seems that we have things a bit topsy turvy....instead of protecting the victims and future victims, we are protecting the parties that actually caused the situation to begin with.

How is this any different than (G-d Forbid) a murderer, a rapist, or any other violent crime against innocent parties?

Why are we so worried about the criminals????

That is why we have a criminal justice system. To go after these fiends and make sure that a message is sent to the community at large.

If we are to use the logic of 'parnassa', then when and how could ANY crime be prosecuted?

It's insane.

This behavior will NOT be tolerated under any circumstance.

I am sorry to say, but in situations like this I feel that I have more faith in Western civilization.

ABBI:

"You didn't respond to my question about whether you'd make the same call for calm if the suspect was the non-Jewish janitor."

i wouldn't bother waiting around for a response.

Would like to remind all your Israeli readers (citizens) that there was a law passed in 1977, subsection 262 prevention of a crime and subsection 368D dealing with Chovat Divuach. ANYONE who knows of a crime such as these being committed HAS TO inform the police or a pekidat saad. Not to do this is a crime. This is of course to protect the children... and not the attacker.

Rafi wrote:"As a matter of fact, one of them told me he is no longer involved because it is now a police matter and not shayach to him anymore."
How can the Rabbi say "it's not shayach to him any more" and how come these Rabbanim did not start an outcry when TE let him in the classroom? I just don't get it.
We have to be chosesh for this alleged abusers parnasa?? What about the children in the classroom?
The way these rabbanim (mis)-handled this has eroded my respect of these otherwise great people.
Rav Soloveichik took a strong stance, unfortunately the rabbanim on the Charedi side of fence did not.
I really want to understand the rational for "shev val taaseh"

Tachlis: has the tzav harchaka been changed to include Torat Eliyahu?

Anonymous parent- I got chills when I read your comment, but I'm relieved that you took action when you did. I'm sure it must have been devastating, and then to be further abused by the school itself is even more shocking (but unfortunately not surprising).

mrs rbs: I have been wondering the same thing. Would the school continue to employ a rebbe suspected of murder? Would people be worried about such a rebbe's parnassa?

LOZ: No, I don't suspect I'll be getting an answer any time soon about the non Jewish janitor.

commenter abbi:
"You didn't respond to my question about whether you'd make the same call for calm if the suspect was the non-Jewish janitor."

If you read my comments carefully you will see that I have no problem with a call for action. I was just saying that we should think clearly before we act and say things. This was in response to someone's blog that said that just because one questions an opinion of Lema'an Achai or a certain Rabbi then "Oh so I guess that Lema'an Achai's tzedaka and chesed isn't good enough for them either?". I personally give (not receive) money to that wonderful organization. However, I retain the right to question some of their opinions.

So whether the suspect is a Jew or a non-Jew please evaluate the situation carefully and then have the appropriate response and actions.

So anonymous, please tell us what the appropriate response would be in this situation, because it seems from your comments that you disagree that a teacher accused of child molestation should be immediately removed from the classroom.

I hope I am wrong and that I've misunderstood your comments.

Commenter abbi:
"So anonymous, please tell us what the appropriate response would be in this situation, because it seems from your comments that you disagree that a teacher accused of child molestation should be immediately removed from the classroom."

In this particular case I can not say as I don't know precise details. Based on the suspicions in this blog my inclinations would be that perhaps the Rebbe should be removed - leave of absence - until the investigation is complete. I would consult with Gedolei Yisrael. And I would obviously hear both sides directly and not pasken dinei nefashos based on a blog.

However, I do feel that in some theoretical cases (NOT this one) that we don't have to immediately fire a Rebbe with a clean history based on any far fetched rumor (NOT this case). I think that many factors must be considered: history of the Rebbe, level of suspicion, chance of it being repeated in current setting, damage to Rebbe and his family, threat to children in/out of school... And yes in this theoretical situation based on all the various factors it might make a 'small' difference (not the deciding factor) if it is a Jewish worker or a non-Jewish janitor.

While the danger to the children is the overriding concern the other factors must be considered if it would be just a far fetched rumor (again - not this case).

anonymous, i'm not sure what your background is, but it doesn't sound like you've had any experience either working with children or working with sex offenders. Thinking clearly about a situation of this nature means first and foremost, thinking clearly about the safety of children.Sorry, but reputation and parnassa come second to children's safety. It's just that simple. And until the charedi community understands this simple fact, children and victim's families will continue to suffer.

Thinking clearly means any time an accusation is made, the teacher is removed from the classroom situation (suspended with pay, office duty, whatever) until the accusations are cleared up. Full stop. Will this suspension tarnish an innocent rebbe's reputation? Possibly- but, as they say, them's the breaks. And if he's exonerated, there really shouldn't be too much of a problem.

And as for consulting gedolei yisrael, considering the rabbonim in the town itself consider the case "not shayach" to them, it's doubtful gedolei yisrael would ever give a fig.

For an alternative halachic perspective:

My son was in that class at YL. B"H our son was not targeted for abuse, but we are friendly with one of the families whose son was (allegedly) abused. We were instrumental in encouraging both them and the school to take the child's accusations seriously and take action on them.

I probably should have asked a sha'alah beforehand, and I did so subsequently. There was a lot more to the story, but tachlis, the Rabbi I asked told me strongly that we should not have done what we did; the school should have taken no action against the teacher beyond having a "yotzei v'nichnas" to ensure that nothing untoward could happen in the class. He said that suspending the rebbi, even on full pay, was nothing short of sh'fichus damim, and that nothing could be done to alter the status quo until the accusations were proven true beyond reasonable doubt.

I did ask other Rabbonim afterwards, and they disagreed with the first Rabbi; I still think we did the right thing. But I just wanted to post, for the record, that there are serious halachic considerations involved, and that failing to take action against the rebbi does not necessarily mean that the authorities are in denial; there could be halachic considerations.

I held a meeting today with Rav Gottlieb at Torat Eliyahu.

Here in brief: Rav Gottlieb asked that I pass the information to this blog, which I now confirm, that the tzav harchaka does NOT refer to "Torat Eliyahu" but it refers to "Yishrei Lev".

Here's the more detailed report:

1. I prefaced the discussion by explaining to Rav Gottlieb that my/Lema'an Achai's function here is to help protect kids.

2. I protested the school employing the teacher and placing him in a classroom, while under police investigation for alleged pedophilia. I pointed out that whereas the good name & parnassah of the teacher and of the school are important considerations, it is Lema'an Achai position that the protection & welfare of the children is paramount.

3. Rav Gottlieb showed me a copy of the "tzav harchaka" (restraining order) with the teacher's name on it. Rav Gottlieb brought to my attention that the tzav harchaka refers specifically to "Yisraei Lev" and there is no mention of Torat Eliyahu.

4. At Rav Gottlieb's suggestion, I called "100" the police emergency number from Rav Gottlieb's office. I did this, and they referred me on to Bet Shemesh police.

5. I therefore called the Bet Shemesh police ("yoman"); they took the details and called me back a few minutes later.

6. The Bet Shemesh police told me that, in principle, if the tzav harchaka refers to one place/person ("Yisrei Lev"/Shimon, whoever..), and the teacher is in another ("Torat Eliyahu"/Reuven..) then the teacher has complied with the literal requirements of his 'tzav' and the police can do nothing. They explained that this is even the case if the first place no longer exists ("Yishrei Lev" went out of business a few months ago).

7. I asked them to transfer the call to the investigator (Hagit) for this specific case. Hagit told me that, as a non-party to this case, she would give me no information.

Conclusion: The initial information that the tzav harchaka was from "Torat Eliyahu" was inaccurate/unreliable.

However, the versions on Rafi's blog are reliable - the 15 day tzav has been served by the police against this teacher, and it distances the teacher from a non-existent school.

Until the wording is changed to "Torat Eliyahu", Torat Eliyahu is apparently under no *legal* obligation to evict the teacher from the class, nor under any legal obligation to take *any* precautionary measures.

Comments? Suggestions??

Yours
David Morris, Chairman
Lema'an Achai.

I don't get something. when the rabbonim were involved, everybody was upset that they should not be and it should have been dealt with by the police. And everyone says the rabbonim made bad decisions. now that the rabbonim are not involved, and the police are, everyone is upset that the rabbonim are not involved.

Just curious - what would really make you happy? you want the rabbonim involved but only to do what you think is right? If you want the rabbonim involved, you have to accept that they might make decisions that you do not agree with and you are willing to work with that. If you do not want the rabbonim involved, why are you screaming about that now?

Rafi,

As a parent of the affected class I would like to address your question about rabbonim.

Speaking for myself I must say that the rabbonim's initial involvement seemed only to try and keep the story away from the authorities and the rebbe in the class.

The rabbonim at no time gave us direction or chizuk in how to speak with our children or deal with the victims.

Yes I would like to have had the rabbonim involved if their wish was to help and protect children. In that absence we have no choice but to rely on the police.

I understand that. I mean, in light of their involvement being considered less than satisfactory until now, why are various commenters asking where are the rabbonim and why are they not more involved?

Been there done that, as we say..

I think that people are asking
"why aren't the rabbonim more involved" meaning why aren't they taking an active role in protecting our children.

With the exception of Rabbi Soloveichik no rav in the community has addressed this issue.

One word from certain rabbonim would have kept this rebbe from the classroom.

They have no fear in battling malls,mikvaos,supermarkets and concerts.

Why are they so afraid to stand up for our kids?

Whistleblower,

I am also a parent in the class but unlike you I initially defended the rebbe and spoke about the family.

I have a question for the rav you asked. It is this question that turned us around about the case:

The victim's parents removed him from the school (rightly so).

What would he have thought if he wasn't able to go to school but his (alleged)molester was?

Can you imagine the damage?

He and all of his classmates who witnessed this travesty would have a perverted sense of justice.

The (alleged) perp gets off scott free and his victims must suffer.

May HaShem heal all of the victims.

Rafi, one would hope that children's health and welfare would be of utmost concern the leaders of the community, the rabbonim. When it becomes abundantly clear that this is not the case, why are you surprised when community members are disappointed?

When people say "where are the rabbonim?" they are really asking "Why aren't the rabbonim protecting my children?"

"He said that suspending the rebbi, even on full pay, was nothing short of sh'fichus damim, and that nothing could be done to alter the status quo until the accusations were proven true beyond reasonable doubt."

What would this rav have said if you had a knife,fork,bowl, etc. with a shaila?
Keep it together with the kosher silverware? Or separate it until the shaila is answered?

What about a shaila in Taharas Mishpacha? Would he tell you to stay together or separate until the question was clarified?

Then how can this Rav be so nonchalant with the blood of our children?

They should be at least as choshuv as the drawer full of silverware!

Shame on this "Rav"!

to the Lma'an Achai rep (and thank you for all your good work): Please respond to 'Rav' (and I use that term loosely, as I have ZERO respect for this person and how he responded to you) Gottlieb as such:

This person was just given a restraining order to basically stay away from children. How in G-d's name are you not concerned about your student body??? What kind of responsible school principal are you?

This response is so sickening that I don't even have the words to describe my level of disgust. If there are any parents of T E out there reading this, I have zero respect for you if you keep your kids in that school.

Some people are trying to excuse Chareidim for their behavior, but they should not be excused. They should be educated in Western civilization. and YES, there are some advantages there, like protecting children.

There are two worlds at play here: the world of Western Mores and Rabbinic/Chareidi Ethics and Mores.

Clinton said, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the—if he— if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not—that is one thing. ...


Rav Gottlieb showed me a copy of the "tzav harchaka" (restraining order) with the teacher's name on it. Rav Gottlieb brought to my attention that the tzav harchaka refers specifically to "Yisraei Lev" and there is no mention of Torat Eliyahu.


Anyone see the similarity of defending a wrong doing by playing
on words. Clinton demoralized the
American society and made oral sex
a new acceptable activity for teenage children.

I guess Gottlieb and the rest
of the defenders of Kagen want child molestation a new acceptable activity in the classroom.

It is very obvious Gottlieb is
playing on a police error in which
school Kagen was at. I guess he
would eat trief meat in a kosher
pot.

David Morris should be applauded
for his attempt to protect our
children. It is a shame Gottlieb
does not feel the same way.

Dear David Morris,

Kol Hakavod to you and Lema'an Achai.

Baruch HaShem there are people out there who care about our precious children.

What TE is telling you is that yes, we know this man has a Tzav against him but hey it's not about us so "tough luck".

I can't believe that there are schools out there who take such an attitude.

Comments or suggestions? Chazak V'amatz! Keep up your stance and the truth will prevail.

However to the parents in TE I say:
wake up and do something so that your children don't become statistics (chas v'shalom).

To the general listening audience:

I have been following these events closely and for good reason.

I am a therapist who has been contacted by some of the parents of the Yishrei Lev class. None of these parents claim to have children who were directly touched by the rebbe.

All of them have seen significant changes in their children's behavior since the start of the last academic year.

Something happened under this man's watch.

I have not seen any of the children as yet.I have just spoken with the parents.

I have urged them and I will urge you as well: if your child was ever in this rebbe's class and has displayed behavior changes GET HELP!

You can report it in total confidentiality to the Merkaz Hagana in Jerusalem or to the local Pkidat Saad (990-9887).

Therapy through them is subsidised and confidential.

Your and your children's identity will be protected.

Even if you only suspect that your child witnessed something youmust report it.

You can save many neshomos including your own child's.

Please don't stand by the blood of our children.

"Here in brief: Rav Gottlieb asked that I pass the information to this blog, which I now confirm, that the tzav harchaka does NOT refer to "Torat Eliyahu" but it refers to "Yishrei Lev"."

Is Rabbi Gottlieb PROUD that his star rebbe is only forbidden from being around certain schools and children?

Is that what he'd like you to pass on to us?

Well then I think even less than him and his school than I did before.

anybody know anything of Israel Weingarten? Another shining example of Religious Judaism?

He is an innocent man framed by other Bet Shemesh parents (yes the crime began here).

Obviously the minor girl (and her parents) that he did unthinkable acts with simply had a grudge against him.

And how dare the grand jury in New York indict him without asking a rav first! Don't they know his parnassa could be ruined?

They now have the din of rodfim.

anon of 9:19

Don't blame Judaism for its Jews.

And how could israel weingarten have done such things?

He was a fine erlicher yid with payos and a beard.

He ate only mehadrin hashgachos.

His kids learn in the best yeshivos.

He won't go to Lipa concerts.

Everything he does is with da'as Torah.

(well almost everything)

mrsrbs said
"How in G-d's name are you not concerned about your student body??? What kind of responsible school principal are you?"

He obviously is concerned about his student body. However, based on his understanding this Rebbe represents no threat to them. I am sure that he is also watching this Rebbe's actions very carefully as a precaution. His current evaluation is that there is no immediate danger and until the legal authorities say differently he is acting based on that.

You may strongly disagree with that approach (I also may) but don't accuse anyone who disagrees with you about not caring about the children.

Apparently the school and other (previously) highly respected Rabbanim feel that an institution can evaluate the level of suspicion and danger to their students and are not required to immediately fire and destroy this teacher.

If it is so clear to you that it was a police typo - then please take the proper productive action and go to the police immediately demanding that it be fixed.

anon 11 48

did u just seriously write that?

if i didn't know better I would assume that you were indoctrinated into some sort of cult that insists that their leaders know better than you...even when logic dictates otherwise

or are you????

Anon of 11:48,

I won't go into whether YL should have fired him.

But WHY did TE have to hire him back?

By taking this man in and flaunting it they have done more to destroy him than many firings would have. Or if they felt he needed to be hired let him be a consultant or prepare materials.

If they truly believe him to be innocent (and they obviously do)they would have done him much more good to NOT hire him and bring his name to the forefront.

The amount of bitul caused by this shows a keen lack of good judgment on their part.

If they truly cared about the kids (and the rebbe) they would have arranged another form of employment.

anonymous 11:56 said
"if i didn't know better I would assume that you were indoctrinated into some sort of cult"

Ohh is that also part of western mores and ethics that anyone who disagrees with you is part of a cult. Oh I get it whenever some charedi Rabbi disagrees with you we blame all the charedi leaders and accuse them of having no concern for the children of Israel.

I don't judge charedim,chasidim,litvacks,dati-leumi,etc. on the few who give them a bad name.

I judge the groups on the majority who may do nothing wrong still CONDONE the behavior of their colleagues.

Anon of 12:08

"Oh I get it whenever some charedi Rabbi disagrees with you we blame all the charedi leaders and accuse them of having no concern for the children of Israel."

Ok - please name me ONE Charedi rabbi in RBSA who came out to protect or even comfort the kids in this case!

I Just can't Fathom said...

You may be right TE may have erred in judgment in hiring him once they knew this situation existed. Many parties would have been better off if it was handled differently. As Chazal say "aizehu chacham ha'roeh es ha'nolad".

anon 12 08

actions (or rather non actions) speak louder than words, my friend.

also, since you are such a champion of chareidi 'leadership', kindly stop reading blogs on this vile thing we call the internet.

anon 12:16
"also, since you are such a champion of chareidi 'leadership', kindly stop reading blogs on this vile thing we call the internet."

I am not a champion of chareidi 'leadership' - I am just against the constant charedi bashing that is prevalent. I am also open enough to hear a different approach without accusing them of not caring about the children.

And since it is getting late thanks for the advice that I should stop reading blogs.

Have a good night - my friend.

well, you know what? i am not tired of chareidi bashing. it was bad enough when:

1. they created an entire welfare class of people that cannot take care of themselves. I don't think that is what Hashem had mind.
2. let their kids run around at all hours of the day and night without proper supervision.
3. sell their soul to the Israeli government to get money for their precious yeshivas while not respecting the young men and women who defend their right to live and learn Torah here.

HOWEVER, when they don't take care of their own dirty laundry and wake up to the fact that they have sick people in their midst, I will no longer give an ounce of respect to anything else they have to say.

and on that note...good night.

There is GOOD news here for RBS.

There are already HEROES within these unfolding events.

I name them and I am proud of them:

1. Rafi - for having the personal courage and integrity to run this story, and wisely guide the ensuing public outrage & debate.

2. Rav Soloveichik - for standing up and saying publicly what we all know to be common sense.

3. Lema'an Achai - for stepping into the breach, in order to provide practical professional compassionate help for victims of child abuse.

4. You - fellow bloggers who, given this forum by Rafi, have (almost universally) eloquently demanded that protecting our kids must become THE priority in our educational & rabbinical system.

5. The Parents - who listened to the cry of their children, risked hostility & cherum, to report their concerns to the correct authorities. (More must now also step forward!)

6. And most of all, The Kids - who had the unimaginable courage to tell their parents about the pains inflicted, and which the kids are not yet old enough to fully fathom.

To all these Heroes of RBS - Yeshar kochachem!

The work has just begun, of throwing out old, entrenched, failed models for dealing with criminal behaviors within our community - and replacing these models with more effective, more compassionate, yes, truly more 'frum', codes of conduct and response.

This coming year should bring these heroes, us, and all of our kids: bracha and hatzlacha; prosperity & good health; safety and relief.

Tachlis, are TE parents removing their kids from this dangerous school or not?

Here's my two cents about Toras Eliyahu.

I spoke with a person who is involved in the case. He is personally convinced of Kagan's innocence. (I myself and still not sure.)

However.

This person also thinks that Toras Eliyahu was out of line to hire Kagan. Even if someone knew, with clear, irrefutable evidence that Kagan did nothing wrong, it would be irresponsible to hire him -- at this juncture. Wait for the investigation to take its course and then make a decision.

As far as I know, not a single TE parent gets named as a hero (yet).

The TE parents have ALL remained morally blind - herded & beholden to a system which apparently sacrifices their children for the (nominal) sake of the adults...

Anon of 8:38

"I spoke with a person who is involved in the case. He is personally convinced of Kagan's innocence. (I myself and still not sure.)"

How is he "involved"?

As a parent of a victim I'd like to speak with him.

If you're not sure you can speak with me as well.

Let's see if you're still not convinced afterwards.

"I spoke with a person who is involved in the case. He is personally convinced of Kagan's innocence."

Is he a cop? A rav? A therapist?
Did he interview both sides?

I am personally convinced of this guy's stupidity.

I am curious about something.

Everybody is focusing on the parnossa issue which I understand is based on a statement made by one of the Rabbis involved and taken out of context. We are blaming the school as if they care more about the Rebbi's parnassah than the benefit of the children. I think that it was a mistake to hire him but the reason they hired him (and keep him) is because they think he is innocent and he happens to be a very good Rebbi which is not so easy to find.

Is it possible that the temptation to keep the Rebbi is based more on the belief that he is such a good Rebbe and not because the school doesn't care about the children?

Do we need to villify everybody in order to get something accomplished?

Can we go about making a difference in an imperfect society without flaming people?

"I am curious about something.

Everybody is focusing on the parnossa issue which I understand is based on a statement made by one of the Rabbis involved and taken out of context. We are blaming the school as if they care more about the Rebbi's parnassah than the benefit of the children. I think that it was a mistake to hire him but the reason they hired him (and keep him) is because they think he is innocent and he happens to be a very good Rebbi which is not so easy to find.

Is it possible that the temptation to keep the Rebbi is based more on the belief that he is such a good Rebbe and not because the school doesn't care about the children?

Do we need to villify everybody in order to get something accomplished?

Can we go about making a difference in an imperfect society without flaming people?"



Just read this post again and again. There is no need to comment.

Parent of Heroic Child said:
"As a parent of a victim I'd like to speak with him.
If you're not sure you can speak with me as well."

Did you spoke with TE and share with them your knowledge of the case?

"Can we go about making a difference in an imperfect society without flaming people?"

Let's start making a difference in an imperfect society (an understatement if I ever heard one) by doing the most obvious thing in such a situation- protecting children. Every justification for keeping this rebbi just gets sicker and sicker.

Shvichus damim trumps a child's safety? That's like saying there's legitimate halachic justification for throwing bleach on untznius women or burning down stores that sell untznius clothing.

Good rebbis are hard to find? Maybe because you have too many schools for every silly nuance of minhag. Try reducing your schools and you'll find a plethora of good teachers.

This case is "not shayach" to the local rabbonim? Right, children's safety is not shayach, but cell phones, computers, what kind of college degree you can get, what kind of job you can get, how many children you can have are all shayach, but basic health and safety is not shayach. Okeeee.

The bottom line, getting back to the original post- yes Rafi, every community around the world has it's share of despicable predators that prey on the defenseless in the community. The challenge is how the community deals with these predators. And I'm sorry to say, a great deal of the community is coming up short in this department. Certainly the leaders.

"I am curious about something. ...Just read this post again and again. There is no need to comment."

Well I am going to comment - I agree with you. The school does care about the children. Let's stop vilifying anyone who has a different approach.

"Let's stop vilifying anyone who has a different approach."

So I guess the Torah is wrong in vilifying the Molech who is servbed by sacrificing children..it's simply a different approach.

Yes, this newfound charedi tolerance is breathtaking.

Gay parades in J-m demand violence in the streets but suspected molesters in schools are a-ok. Got it.

hey - maybe that is a good approach. instead of calling it child molestation, maybe we should call it homosexual attacks. Maybe then the leadership will deal with it differently!

Rafi-

On a totally unrelated topic (you may choose to make a new post about this).

What is going on with kapparos at the merkaz?

I usually use money but saw the pirsumim that it would be for Lema'an Achai so I said why not.

When I got there yesterday I see banners for the Kupa Shel Tzedaka. I asked the young man if this was the same place as in the ads. He said yes. I asked if the money was going to Kupa or LA..he said was going to be LA and now Kupa. No explanation.

Do you know anything about this?

I did not see the ads and know nothing about it. I will try to find out what I can...

pleeease said
"So I guess the Torah is wrong in vilifying the Molech who is servbed by sacrificing children..it's simply a different approach."

Come on - everyone is strongly opposed to child molestation or homosexual attacks. There is no machlokes about that. The question here is based on an unproven suspicion of inappropriate behavior against a Rebbe with a proven good record how should a school act.

But it's been stated here a number of times that he did NOT have a spotless record. That accusations were made at the previous school.

I feel like a broken record, but I'll try one more time. How does the school act? Remove from the classroom until the accusations are thoroughly investigated and proven true or false. Why is this so difficult to understand?

If you are strongly against homosexual attacks and child molestation, why are you against separating a teacher from children after 3 children made complaints about molesting behavior?

commentator abbi said:
"3 children made complaints about molesting behavior"

If there are 3 credible complaints to the police why haven't the police issued a restraining order against the Rebbe from teaching in ALL schools. It shouldn't take a week to fix a typo. Does this reflect that they don't think he is a danger to school children?

fowl ball - it seems like there is a lot of arm twisting going on... for now all I can say is that people should ask the proprietors of the kapparot stand why they advertised for LA and instead are giving the money to Kupa shel Tzedaka.

I'll decide later whether to post anything about it...

If there are 3 credible complaints to the police why haven't the police issued a restraining order against the Rebbe from teaching in ALL schools. It shouldn't take a week to fix a typo. Does this reflect that they don't think he is a danger to school children?


Actually it was updated to include other schools where the complaining kids are presently learning. I was told by police that if TE isn't concerned they won't force a tzav on them.

However the police investigator did say that they feel that the 3 children who complained are all ligit and that's why they are working hard to protect THEM from this menacing man. If the TE feel confident so its ok for now but the investigation continues on.

This argument is going round in circles.

Side One: A suspected child molester should be kept out of the classroom.

Side Two: This teacher has not & will not be removed from the classroom by this school.

Everything else is perush. And a common language between the two sides doesn't seem to exist...

Anyone see a route out of this loop?

To anon, rbs, et al: If you haven't been convinced of the need to protect children until now, it's clear that you will never be convinced. I honestly have nothing more to say. My heart aches for these children and their families. It's sad to see a "frum" community behaving this way, using pilpul to explain away negligent behavior that leaves a suspected predator in a classroom.

I'm sure if/when some of these children end up OTD or worse (mental/emotional problems) all those expounding the "different approach" will be tsk tsking and blaming it on "outside culture" and unkosher cell phones.

Without addressing the merit (or lack thereof) of any claims, I find it interesting how David Morris, a well known and respected member of the RBS community received no private information from the police (the way it should be), whereas many anonymous people who's best attempt at identification is a claim to be affiliated with the situation somehow know exactly how the police view the allegations and what updates have or have not been made.

i was told at the stand that the kapporos stand was supposed to be for Lemmaan achai but in the last minute suddenly moved over to ksz...very odd
i chose to go somewhere else

COVER-UP, COVER-UP, COVER-UP

Attempt to cover-up brought down
Nixon

Attempt to cover-up lead to Clinton's impeachment.

Attempts to cover-up have turned
many situations into disaster for
those trying to hide an incident.

It is just a matter of time before
some major publications picks this
story from the blogs and runs with
it. The issue will be the cover-up
and the rehiring of Akiva Kagen.

Names like Gottlieb and Malinowitz
have national recognition. It is
just a matter of time before the
whole world will see another case
of charedi lack of intelligence and
arrogance.

The evil that is among is scary.

national recognition?

May all the children, parents, Rabbanim, schools and all of klal Yisrael be blessed with a gmar chatima tova and we should only hear besorot tovot.

Hey, heads up everyone!
I heard that R' Kagan was arrested this morning.
Anyone else hear anything to confirm or rebut this rumor?

Mike Miller,

I was the one quoted as speaking to the police and getting info.

Here I am anon but to the police I am the father of a victim. Hence I am permitted to know.

I like your main point, Rafi. I think that needs to be remembered.

I would like to be a fly on
the wall next to where Kagan,
Gottlieb and the others involved
are davening to see if they can
even be honest with Hashem.

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Hi, Rafi. I don't know what hours you keep, but if you are awake and see this please call me. Thanks, Altea Steinherz

Any man who chooses to be a ‘rabbi’ (‘true teacher’ of Torah) or a ‘dayan’ (‘judge’), or a ‘mekubal’ (‘kabbalist’) should be doing so Voluntarily. Out of his pure love for Hashem and the Torah. And his Ahavat Yisrael.

If he refuses to do community work voluntarily, and wants and accepts payment for everything he does, such a man should not be heading a community. He should get a job and earn a living. He can collect milk bottles or clean the windows. That is what is called ‘earning a living’.

Torah is learned, studied and taught: out of Love. Voluntarily. But the ‘rabbis’ have turned the Torah into their ‘Profession’, from which they earn money.

We are commanded in the Shema to:
‘LOVE Hashem, your G-d, WITH ALL YOUR HEART, and with all your soul and with all your might.’

‘VE’AHAVTA et Hashem Elokecha BECHOL LEVAVECHA uvechol nafshecha uvechol meodecha.’ (Devarim, Vaethanan, 6:4-5)

Is the ordinary man or woman PAID to pray to Hashem, or to say some words of Torah? No. Has veshalom! But the rabbis are. These men can give ‘lovely’ shiurim that they have rehearsed. But they would not give a shiur without being paid for it.

The true hachamim and rabbis of old, all actually worked at proper jobs and professions.

Wake up! Even a little child could have worked this out. These salaried men can never truly stand for the Torah, because in a case of conflict between a correct course of action according to the Torah, and the rabbi or rav’s pocket – his pocket and position will always prevail.

Pirkei Avot: (2:2)
“Raban Gamliel beno shel Rabi Yehuda HaNassi omer: yafeh talmud Torah im derech eretz, sheyegiat shenaihem mashkachat avon. Vechol Torah she’ein imah melacha sofa betailah ve’goreret avon. Vechol haoskim im hatzibbur yiheyu imahem leShem Shamayim……”

“Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabi Yehuda HaNassi, said: It is good to combine Torah study with a worldly occupation, for working at them both drives sin from the mind. All Torah without an occupation will in the end fail and lead to sin. And let all who work for the community do so for the sake of Heaven………”