Jun 20, 2011

MK Moshe Gafni On Division Of Haredi and Hiloni In IDF-Yeshiva

In an economic forum dealing largely with the potential integration of more haredim into the general workforce, MK Moshe Gafni had an interesting position.

Gafni said at the forum that he is in favor of having haredim be drafted in to the IDF, at age 18. However, Gafni said, in exchange, the agreement would have to be that young secular jews, 18 year olds from North Tel Aviv or other places, would have to go to yeshiva, even secular yeshivas, and learn Torah instead of those haredim.

Gafni claims that there was always, throughout Jewish history, and we see it discussed in the Tanakh, mishna and gemara, a division between those who learn and those who work and serve the public. So, if they want the haredim to serve, that is fine, but it would require other people to sit and learn.

Personally I am not aware of such a division in the sources, besides for a small amount of people. Even the rabbonim and rosh yeshiva positions were only part-time jobs, mostly unpaid, and they ran businesses on the side for their own parnassa.

Gafni continued saying that the Torah is the only reason we have a right to Eretz Yisrael. Besides for the Torah, we are all conquerers, in tel Aviv as much as in any of the settlements, and without the Torah we do not have the right to have taken any land away from the Arabs.

10 comments:

  1. More demagoguery from MK Gafni that will no doubt bring him cheers from his voters but will not advance either them or the public at large.

    Not only is he not serious about this (see below), it is plain false that religious students ever had an exemption from Milhemet Mitzvah of defending the Jewish people and/or their land. He is distorting the issue by claiming we are talking about "working and serving the public".

    I don't think he is serious about it either. Secular yeshivot are called universities. I don't think he is really means that if Zahal gives an exemption to university srtudents then all the Haredim will sign up to the army.

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  2. he did not mean universities. he meant learning torah. when asked if he would even agree that the torah learnign coulkd be done in secular yeshivot, the like of which a few have opened in the tel aviv area where they learn torah frmo a secular position, he said fine as long as they learn (in the past UTJ has opposed the opening of such yeshivot, though there was nothing they could do to stop them)

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  3. Black hat with a brain beneathJune 20, 2011 2:41 PM

    At this point, I think anyone who actually has a grip on reality will have to stop calling themselves a Chareidi. Made-up facts, made-up history, and made-up hashkafa - the only question is: Does he actually believe his own propaganda?

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  4. Does he actually believe his own propaganda?

    Not only does he believe it..there are tens of thousands of others who are fed it with their kool aid and buy it all.

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  5. From a Haredi point of view, what does he expect to achieve from Hilonim learning apikorsus that would justify sending all the Avreichim to the army?

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  6. thats why they were against them when these yeshivas started opening. he can say this now because he knows it wont be an aceptable condition. as soon as he tells them they have to learn, even on their own terms, they will not be willing, and then he can say if you dont want to, we have to.

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  7. Rafi S is right. We're talking about milhemet mitzvah (so said all of my teachers halacha l'maaseh), and no one is completely exempt as an ab initio assumption.

    MK Gafni's assertion in the last paragraph has some merit, though. Many of us say essentially the same thing.

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  8. Agreeing that the Torah is what gives us the right to be here does not mean that one has to support the current kollel system! The word Torah does not mean kollel!

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  9. "Gafni claims that there was always, throughout Jewish history, and we see it discussed in the Tanakh, mishna and gemara, a division between those who learn and those who work and serve the public."

    This is very anti-Torah for it implies that the Chilonim must be prevented from learning Torah.

    "Gafni continued saying that the Torah is the only reason we have a right to Eretz Yisrael."
    Which is why he would give away land to murderers in exchange for a few shekels.

    Any connection between UTJ and Unity/Torah/Judaism is purely coincidental.

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