I like how the only other financial allocation he specifies, to throw the media of the trail of the charedim, is the SETTLERS.

and higher education. the article details a little more, but your point is well-noted

Oh, kvetch, kvetch, kvetch. And all for another piece of the public pie. Why don't the haredi pols ever talk about *empowering* themselves, building, making, not just taking.

With all due respect, and acknowledging that the chareidim have a lot of work to do, Moshe Gafni is still right that the relationship with the chareidim is a *much* worse problem.

Both from an idealogical standpoint, and also strategically, because the sour relationship is a great part of why the chareidim have such trouble integrating into the workforce, finding appropriate work in the army, and otherwise feel any remote degree of being part of our society enough to work on real solutions.

Considering the comments before mine on this post, and considering how the YNET article seemed slanted to make fun of him, and other indications, I wonder if we can ever dig ourselves out of this whole.

Yair

Also, why all the suspicion about his mentioning settlers and universities? He's simply trying to say that the lion's share of the grants should have been to causes that are to the media's liking. Settlers and universities seem appropo for this precisely because there are large groups of non-chareidi people who hold these causes dear. (Unless I misunderstood your points), why do we have to assume that he's trying to do something insidious?

"Moshe Gafni is still right that the relationship with the chareidim is a *much* worse problem."

Yup. And the fact is that as long as their primary focus is on getting other people's money to support their full-time Torah study, they will never never be equal players. They come off like teenagers demanding more of Dad's money.

This. plus the huge moral affront of shirking military service renders the haredim as a group nothing more than a thorn in the side of the nation.

No matter how many good works you do, at the end of the day, unless you have your own money and are seen to pull your own weight, you are entirely dependent on the goodwill of others. "Victimization" by choice.

This is not going to be popular, but I sincerely believe that the fanatical charedim and the Arabs living in Israel will, between them, destroy the State of Israel.

The former will do it by simple parasitism, sucking and leeching tax money needed for the development of the nation, while simultaneously the time bomb of the high Arab birth rate is ominously ticking away.

I am an observant Jew, living in Israel, and I fear for the continued existence of my country.

It's only a matter of time before the charedi ethos of entitlement sparks a civil war of protest and disgust.

Chana, let's say we agree that chareidim are thieving leeches. MK Gafni's point was simply that the relationship is unbelievably sour, by how the media harped on the לדעתו small amount given to chareidim. I still maintain that that point itself is innocent and true.

And I added that the said relationship לדעתי is the worst of the problems, and one that needs a lot of work.

Instead of complaining about leeching, could someone please just agree to help?

"Chana, let's say we agree that chareidim are thieving leeches."

That's not what I said. The problem, and I *agree* with you that a large part of it is public peerception and emotion, is that nothing is done to improve their public image by more pro-active behavior.

Like we were always told to behave well in public so as not to make the Jews look bad.

Far too few in the haredi community seem to care about how certain behaviors affect the public perception of them, of religious people, and of Torah observance.

How much are some people willing to shout and kick in order to maintain a lifestyle that is financially and societally unsustainable, and at what cost to the clal?

Now you are absolutely right.

Not to defend the aptly-named "shouters and kickers." But a few words defending normal, warm families who simply wear black hats and jackets are in order:

1. They (we) feel a bit disillusioned and even hurt towards non-chareidim, largely because of the anti-chareidi media and movements, and sometimes even from well-intentioned but misinformed people who consume said media.

2. They also feel that their influence is limited because of the sheer volume and force of the "shouters and kickers."

3. Lastly, it's hard to ask for activism for people who have busy lives of their own. (How many Israelis actively work in Hasbarah?) This is especially so as our self-contained lifestyle hides the existence of chareidi-haters. It's unfortunate but we've learned to ignore, accept and live.

Sadly, but with hope for understanding,
Yair