I agree that a cult - if proven - is serious and may possibly require governmental action (i.e., re-educating parents, counseling, etc). But this is a slippery slope my friends. There are "unfit" parents who let their kids vandalize public property. There are "unfit" parents who allow their children to roam the streets after school because they disturb parents. There are "unfit" parents who allow their kids to bully other kids. Shall we go on...Should the Revacha have the power to take all the above-referenced kids away from their parents? The Revacha authorities must be cut down they already have too much power to play Heaven and remove kids from their parents. The "abuse" of the Israeli Welfare authorities is well known among veteran Israelis (those who have been here for many years or grew up here and have more disdain for them than they have for mas hachnasa).

that is a common fear, especially among the religious and minorities. As a matter of fact the same fear of the social welfare authorities happens among rwligious and minorities in many other countries.. I am not going to say it is not justified...

in this specific case it is family members that petitioned the court against the parents. It is not just the authorities stepping in. It might well be justified..

I agree with your overall comment. But I can also tell you that its not just "minorities" or "religious" but everyday Israelis - (dati, chiloni, evryone in the middle) ones who grew up here - are well versed in the knowledge that Revacha lacks due process procedural safeguards and makes many mistakes. It is also well known that people can "abuse" the system by anonymously reporting families for abusing their children just to get even with them or get them to move out of a neighborhood.
To those of us from the States this sort of hing is unknown because there are Constitutional protections (both state and federal) but since Israel lacks a constitution, you are more at the mercy of the welfare people who 1) may be overworked, 2) may be trying to cover their own tush, 3) may be incompetent or 4) may "know" the one who filed a report (friend or family of the complainant). Again, I repeat, sometimes govt intervention is needed but we must understand there are real dangers of overshoot as well.

They have many features in common with the Mormon polygamists. The US government ignored that community and brushed aside rumors of abuse for years, and look at where *that* led.

by the way, the social welfare authorities from bet Shemesh in this case and other similar cases (such as Bruria Keren who is in jail) have been far from overzealous, but have been practically negligent by ignoring these cases and avoiding involvement and allowing it to continue for too long.

The accusation you make is I think mostly historical.

> if anyone outside of the Burqa people group will come to their defense and call it a legitimate lifestyle choice.

No, but the Toldos Aharon/Mea Shearim crowd will use it as an excuse to riot anyway!

I'm curious. i don't agree with the shita of wearing a burqa, but really, looking at our religion and all it's factions, why not accept them? why is that a line that's too much, but so many others are accepted? I happen to see them as a direct result of our over-chumra-ing or turning chumra into halacha society as well as our overly watchful zealousness towards "tzniyut". Why do my chickens have to be labeled glatt, but the burqas are too much? why is this a cult, but lubav or satmar isn't?

before you attack me and give me all the "pat" frummie answers, I've heard all the excuses and none of them ring true. You can't have roshei kollel and "gedolim rail against our lack of tznius and NOT expect this outcome. and this outcome really isn't kneged any halacha. wearing a burqa is NOT against halacha. it is only a problem if she doesn't listen to her husband or beats her kids, but we have no proof the group as a whole does this, no more than the chareidi guy at the kollel who slammed his doughters head against the concrete steps. Is he in a cult?

Shaya - excellent points indeed.

Shaya - to a certain extent I agree. I recently wrote a post supporting their right to dress that way. When you are liberal you have to support the rights of people even if you dont agree with what they do. they can dress however they want. The only thing about it I dislike is when they "force" their way on others, pressure others, try to change the community around them, put up signs saying not to walk in certain areas unless dressed certain ways, etc.

if they dress that way and keep to themselves, they have my blessing!

This group though does not seem to be the average burqa lady. It seem this Lev Tahor group is more cult-like, specifically preying on the burqa ladies. The article talks about lashings and whatnot

Rafi,

again, not much different than some of our other sects. vaad hatzniyus isn't any different. The yeshiva world and many sects force certain clothing looks and restrictions to participate. They really are NO different from the rest of the frum jewish world.

I simply find it hypocritical and laughable that people are all worked up because of burqa's - I believe it's a sex issue, not a halachik one. these women took a chumra that THEY developed, not one developed or demanded by men. that's why people are so upset. Men didn't create this standard for these women. Men decided no red color, no jeans, no this, and no that. but no jewish man said BURQA.

power, control, and sex, baby, that's what it's really all about.

Shaya you make a good point. I think the burka stuff is wrong - when inflicted on children. Otherwise I guess I'd agree with Rafi that if these grown women want to destroy their marriages and rot their bones from lack of vitamin D and whatever else it is their (stupid) choice.

But as I was saying your point about women - now that the women make up something dumb the Rabbis are upset - there is something valid about it. I was going to say well burkas is really extreme, but frankly certain kollel lifestyles which put a heavy burden on mothers and therefore children is pretty bad too.

Your emphasis that it's about the women reminds me of what they say said about mammograms - if that was a test on men, they'd find a better system real quick.

MiriamS:

You say "I think the burka stuff is wrong - when inflicted on children. "
ok, I'll argue - what about Bris milah? Now, I am orthodox and do it and believe in it. but what abpout the others who call us a cult and we are "inflicting it on kids"? how do you respond to them? these are your words mind you. Saying "because God told me to" can easily justify things you don't want to discuss if that's your answer.

Much of what we do as orthodox jews, and then even more so as we delineate down to the various sects - can easily be argued that we "inflict it on the kids".

The vitamin D issue is easily ignored because of supplements and the like. There are many things we do nowadays in the name of health and allergies and homeopathy that really are hurting us, but we make adjustments.

My point is - let it go. I see it as a direct result of our orthodox stupidity and close mindedness, and we sow what we reap. as long as my daughter in high school is told "it's all about tznius", that every tragedy befalling the world is a cry out to gaurd our bodies even further, this is what you'll get. ignore molestation, theft, loshon horah, just worry about whether you're wearing knee highs or anklets under that skirt - that's all god cares about and that's why he destroyed parts of Japan.

Our religion is F**Ked up and getting worse. I feel like I'm swimming upstream nowadays raising my kids to see the beauty of the religion rather than all the stupid "don't do this anymore " rules.

sorry for the rant. i have more to say, but the smoke coming out my ears is blinding me.

g'mar tov all

MiriamS,

let me apologize if i sounded harsh towards you, now that I've reread my post. I wasn't jumping on your comment, I think we agree. i am frustrated by the atitude of ortho jews who are screaming abot how this isn' halachik, but when asked what halacha are they not following, they really can't answer. your comment about "inflicting on the kids" just brings up so many possibilities of what the non-religious argue with us about. If our answer is because god said so, then how is female circumcision more wrong than our male counterpart? why is suicide bombing wrong? because some people say, that's a mistranslation? well, those who hold of it say that's what their god wants, so how can we argue?

I certainley can't answer that because I just don't know. what i do know is I'm sick of the Rabbis or the askanim if you want destroying our religion and not seeing the damage they are doing to the hamon am.

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how about dem BEARS!!!!!

wow shaya g....the uncomfortable truths you speak of have been ruminating in my brain for a while as well...