when gabi gazit opens his mouth, no big deal. when someone like ron huldai does, it is time to take notice.

maybe this is the warm up to the next shinui campaign.

I'm not sure that these things are necessarily indicative of a trend. Gazit is just a general big mouth. What the mayor of Tel Aviv said was in the context of a forum on education dealing specifically with issues of core curriculum. In that context the statements were not unreasonable. And Lapid's article wasn't so much "anti" as it was a "plea".

That said, some data has come out recently which, rightfully, should make us all nervous. That combined with the growing brazenness of the fanatic camp of the Chareidi world certainly would explain a "push back"

Look at the recent graves/emergency room conflict. The Chareidim raised problems. Halachic solutions were found and their leadership said "No, we reject any compromise or solutions!"
So is it any wonder the extreme seculars are doing the same thing to them? People are fed up with being treated like idiots.

Well, we're at the 19th of the month so we just past the full moon.

"...the growing brazenness of the fanatic camp of the Chareidi world certainly would explain a "push back"

That's what I was thinking.

Yatza scharo b'hefsedo/
Tafasta merubah lo tafasta.

The push for power and control from the Charedi camp is scaring the population.

Remember this is a population that largely doesn't:
1)Accept the medina
2)Pay taxes (many in the charedi community don't)
3)serve in the army
4)accept the minhagim/dress, etc. of other Israelis
5)have been welcomed into society at large,given the opportunity to learn undisturbed,provided with funding for private schools,etc and

yet...

Many of them want total control of:
1)Bus lines
2)Mikvaos
3)Religious councils
and other areas of life.

While I might not agree with the secular side and their campaign I can see from where such ideas can originate.

For the past 62 years the secualr majority has allowed the charedi minority to live in peace.
The secualr fear that if they become the minority will they be afforded the same understanding.

really Rafi? You don't know why there is a push back now? After the unemployment numbers came out, the mikvaot are being taken over, the bus lines are under attack, emergency rooms are running way over budget because of things that are within our control, concerts are being stopped, and in general even those of us who at one time fell on the borders of certain groups want to disassociate ourselves as far as possible, and you don't know where the push is coming from?

Rafi,

If you look at Ron Huldai's comments in total, they were not particularly anti-chareidi. His comments were at a forum discussing education, with reps from all groups (including Chareidi and Arab), and was supposed to be a open discussion. The thrust of Huldai's comments was that the Chareidi education system does not prepare anyone for going out into the world, and if the Chareidim don't want to listen to the Ministry of Education's rules on a core set of subjects, they should not expect to be supported. Not too terible, is it?

Newton's Third Law: Every action has a reaction equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.

KT
Joel Rich

hevra,

sometimes RG just puts out fodd for thought to stimulate discussion. I tihk he knows why thsi si happening.

way to go garfield.. and everyone seemed to be acknowledging, understanding and justifying of the sentiments, rather than it coming from me (coming from me I probably would have been attacked for justifying, albeit not approving of, anti-haredi sentiments)...

it really is wrong, and on each issue they can fight for what they think is right. but then to generalize and say haredim are bad because of this that or the other, that is wrong. Gazit might have been the only one to generalize though.

well why don't you ask the Charedim. They hate themselves so what do they expect from others. They discriminate against little kids in school who are also chareidi just because their name Suissa instead of Schwartz. They preach that anyone who doesn't wear a black hat can't possibly be a righteous Jew, they destroy other people's property and physically hurt people while all the time saying that it's in the name of Hashem. They basically view Jews who have the audacity to daven in a different shul as being barely one step up from goyim. I can go on and on...
SO finally the rest of people said hey if they hate themselves then we can too.
I used to be Dan Lekaf Zechus and try to defend the charedim with my secular colegues but after the lates scandals and chillul hashem, I'm just fed up

who cares? the future of the state of israel depends on the secular and dati leumi communties putting their collective feet down and stop letting these parasites control them....

I would not go as far as to say parasites. Ingrates, yes but not parasites.

I would like them to consider hakaras hatov for the blessing of living here.

I would like them to not only take from me, my friends and my organizations but give to us and them as well.

I would like their rabbonim to speak about mutual respect and practice what they preach.

I would like to enjoy a concert in the park w/o fearing for the safety of the kids performing.

I would like them to accept that just as they might be different from one another (litvish vs chasidish, ashkenazi vs sefardi) we can also be different and still be Jews.

I don't ask them to observe Yom HaZikaron, Yom Hashoah and Yom HaTzmaut as I do but I do ask that they respectfully allow me to (and not drive, talk, etc. during the tzfirah).

it really is wrong, and on each issue they can fight for what they think is right. but then to generalize....

as some commenters before me indicated, maybe it's in the way they fight.

I would like them to accept...we can also be different and still be Jews.

aren't they fighting a sort of internal assimilation war? seems they have even acknowledged they cannot accept variation because they are concerned more will leave the charedi way of life and weaken its foundations. it's sad, because then we all lose out.

Wow
So much to say.

To fed Up -
Maybe they discriminate against kids cuz the families are not as frum. Does everything have to turn into a racist issue? Do we have to have affirmative action screw everything up?

Never heard anyone preach that if you dont wear a black hat then you cant possibly be a righteous Jew. Maybe they said its not likely :) but, please get your facts straight. No need to make exagerate.

While I have heard that there are those chareidim who physically hurt people and break property in the name of Hashem, I do think you mean to say that SOME extremest chareidim do this. MOST - ie almost all - do not. Again, not need to exagertate.

I never heard chareidim discuss people who daven in other shuls as being one step above goyim. In fact, maybe youd be surprised to hear it, but we dont really talk about DL/MO/Chilonim all that much. Were much too busy thinking of important things like new ways to steal from the government *rolls eyes* youre really not near the top of out list of things to think about.

Why do you think we hate ourselves? Sounds like you hate us enough for the whole town.


Mrs RBS -
Its amazing that you would stoop this low and call other people parasites. Shouldnt we love all Jews? Couldnt it be better if you didnt hate so many frumme yidden?


My Ani -
We have hakaras hatov to the One who lets us live here.

We do give to you. We have many organizations giving to the whole population. Perhaps you have heard of Hatzala? Zaka? Yad Sara? I know I have.

Mutual respect implies that both parties respect each other. You are asking for one side to respect the other. I dont see that as being mutual.

I would also like to enjoy a concert in the park without any getting hurt. How about we do it in a place and a way that will not offend the people who live right there?

I dont know who you are, but I take you at your work that you are a Jew. You do of course realize, that if people think your hashkafos are crum and not valid, then you can not plead with them to accept your positions as valid. Just like you have a red line, and if youre over the red line, its not valid, we also have ours.

Why do you ask me to stand still at a siren as if I were a goy at a moment of silence? We as Jews have a way of mourning our loved ones. What I do is - when I am in my neighborhood, a chareidi one, I dont feel a need to stand. When I am among chilonim who wont understand me, and just get upset, then I stand still. I would think that you understand that we have a different way of mourning, and wouldnt group you with those that think they know better than chazal, the rishonim, the mesora thru the generations. If you are telling me you think like the chilonim, then I would stand still. And if I were in Meah Shearim, I would take pictures of the chilonim who are not standing still, because they are too busy taking pictures.
But I would question why you ask me to respect your wishes - and abide by yoru custom - even at a time that I think you are doing something wrong? Doesnt that mean you are not respecting my wishes? If its parve, its one thing. But if we hold its *wrong* so by you insisting on your issue, you are not respecting ours.

Food for thought :)

anon,

Hatzala,Zaka and Yad Sara are heavily supported by "non Charedi" money. Believe me..I know this for a fact. In particular Zaka and Yad Sara are mostly non Charedi supported.

I don't know where you live but if you do live in RBS...there are organizations (one comes to mind) that mostly helps Charedim yet they receive little support from the Charedi community. As a matter of fact they are even banned from certain Charedi shuls. Yet those same Charedim feel that they are entitiled to the help that the organization gives. And this organization is a wonderful example of Charedim,DL,Chardal, etc. working together for the community. I daven in a more DL shul and we allow (and many give) to Charedi organizations in town..why can't other shuls do likewise. if you personally do..kol hakavod. If you don't give to or volunteer for this organization I challenge you to see for yourself.

Regarding the siren...if i had my way there would be a more fitting way to observe. However the founders of this country chose this way. You say that it would depend if you are among "chilonim" or not as to what you would do.

Just think for a minute of the lives of the thousands of soldiers who gave their lives so that we can live here safely. If even ONE relative of theirs would be offended it isn't worth it. It's not like it is asur or avoda zara to stand for 2 minutes.

We owe them at least (and a whole lot more).

"Never heard anyone preach that if you dont wear a black hat then you cant possibly be a righteous Jew."

Rabbi Zev Leff tells a story in which his son came home from school and said his Rebbe explained that kipot srugot are bad because one's tzidkus (or mitzvot or something like that) escapes through the holes. And Rav Leff goes on to say that he was happy to come up with a way to suggest a different way of thinking without outright insulting the Rebbe: "What would your Rebbe say about Toldos Aharon who wear the white knitted kippas?"

Dati Leumi, Charedim, Secular (i.e. unaffiliated) and all members of the tribe. Remember that a (Iranian) nuclear bomb doesn't discriminate. It doesn't care what Kippah you wear. What head covering your wife does or does not wear. It doesn't even care whether you work or sit in Kollel. It blasts everyone to Kingdom come. So why CHOOSE to unify us through such negative (hateful) energy? Consider, just as much positive energy abounds.

I would also like to enjoy a concert in the park without any getting hurt. How about we do it in a place and a way that will not offend the people who live right there?

"Offend"? An all boys choir? How could that offend? Oh because families were there?

And even if they were offended does this justify innocent kids getting hurt?

Shame on you.

Perhaps such people would only be safe inside a Taliban cave.

Rafi, it's your fault! Everybody reads your blog and they watch the videos. The haredization of Bet Shemesh (video) Remember you posted this from MABAT not so long ago.
Ok, maybe it does have something to do with the segregation of the schools, and the zealots, and the bans. Maybe.

if only...

to anon who called me out:

it's your type of mentality that has guilted the American Chareidi crowd into not taking a stand...I'm sick and tired of you and your kind throwing out the 'be nice to your fellow Jew line".

Since when does being Jewish give you permission to act in a manner beneath contempt? As long as your payos are down to the floor, then you can trample on other people's rights? who says these people are 'frum' anyhow?

grow up. am SO sick and tired of your mentality.

and by the way, you are not chareidi if you are on the internet....

I think the American Chareidi crowd wants to be chareidi. Maybe they want to follow in the footsteps of the Gedolim of the past generations. I highly doubt its becasue of a "be nice to us" line. Unless you think that this is all parasites can think of anyway.

The issue I took with you is that you express some deep resentment. Its not that you just resent Chareidim, you stooped to calling them names in a public forum.

What you are doing here is called beating a straw horse. I myself never heard of it until I read it on some blog or mailing list.

I - or anyone else for that matter - ever said that you act in a manner beneath contempt. What does that have to do with calling an entire segment of frum Jews an offensive name?

Would you be offended and upset if I called DL "secular" or MO jews "goyim" ? Maybe not, but someone else who posted got offended by the thought that "there are those" who do.

Why do you think that simply because some chareidim act improperly that this gives you the right to group chareidim all together and call them an offensive name?

I challenge you to work out the numbers as to how much money goes to chareidim, and how much to chilonim - per person!
Bituah leumi is the same.
For elementary schools, chareidim get less.
Work out now how much goes to secular high schools vs yeshivos and beis yaakovs.
Work out how much goes to college vs kollel (meager) stipend from datot.

I think you will be surprised to see that the numbers are not so parasitic

ps - So I am not chareidi. Who cares? Are you stooping so low as to put everyone into a box and judge them all the same? Do I confuse you because I have some chareidim hashkafos, but I am on the internet, therefore not acting like some lowly parasite?

I challenge you to work out the numbers as to how much money goes to chareidim, and how much to chilonim - per person!
Bituah leumi is the same.
For elementary schools, chareidim get less.
Work out now how much goes to secular high schools vs yeshivos and beis yaakovs.
Work out how much goes to college vs kollel (meager) stipend from datot."

And I challenge you...how many Charedim pay full arnona and mas hachnasa (which goes to pay for schools)?
How many charedim serve in the army?
People who go to college will one day work and pay taxes. While people in kollel contribute Torah it is difficult to explain this to a chiloni who works, hard, pays taxes and full arnona.
And even among Anglo Charedim many don'y make aliyah and become citizens to avoid the army for their kids.

It's great that the charedim wish to benefit from the medina, it's services, it's army protection,tax discounts,subsidized tuitions,kitzvat yeladim,subsidized bus fares, etc.

But they should also want to shoulder some of the burden that it takes to provide all of this.

I believe that what I have posted elsewhere, though not directly relevant to the main topic here, is relevant enough to post it here as well. So here it is:

The Action Committee for Integrity in Providing for Religious Services, which includes many of the most prominent Rabbis from Ramat Bet Shemesh, requested that I help the English-speaking public understand the issues encompassed in the struggle to ensure that Mikvehs provide any woman who wishes to utilize Mikveh services with amiable and Halachically-sound service which will promote Mikveh use.

I may also write up some summaries in English of the material which has been publicized in Hebrew in the past several weeks; but, first of all, I wish to encourage anyone who wishes to hear the truth from someone who has studied this issue in depth, and whose purpose is simply to promote positive experiences relating to dipping in the Mikveh and other spiritual actions, to contact me by phone or Email for more details.

Catriel Lev
Mobile Phone: 050-205-7867
Home Phone: 02-991-4332
Email: clev@actcom.com