was it mixed-mixed or separate seating mixed?

Not being an attendee of these things or one who has seen the videos, I was kind of taken aback by the lack of tzniut in the real sense of the term (as expressed by the navi).

When one thinks of the words of the navi, how does that coincide with prancing around the stage like a rock star and driving the audience into convulsive hysteria, centered on oneself?

Just asking - I hear you. But let me ask - that is true of separate seating concerts as well, no? what you are suggesting is that all forms of public entertainment are by their very nature immodest. Specifically when it is a single performer entertaining, but I guess even with a group of entertainers it would be the same.

and that is assuming that his intention is to draw attention to himself, rather than to simply entertain the crowd that enjoys his music and those who like his dancing and prancing.

Actually, I go to concerts quite often -- just not Jewish or Pop ones.

In the classical concerts I attend, although people often go there to witness the talent of a single individual, the performers generally wear black for the same reasons given by our own tradition. Namely, it is in order to draw attention away from oneself. For the performer to even sway back and forth -- or do ANYTHING to play to the crowd -- would be considered in very, very poor taste.

These concerts, of course, have mixed seating and might even have female vocalists, but the overall atmosphere seems to me much more consistent with hatzneya lechet than the concert clip you posted here.

I found this clip incredibly vulgar and low-class, more reminiscent of what one would see amongst low-class pop culture than what one would want to see from an enlightened nation.

I might add that in my misspent youth, 40 years ago, I would go to non-Jewish rock concerts and I NEVER saw anything remotely similar to what is portrayed in this video -- this aside from the fact that those musicians and songwriters had so much more talent.

I'm not saying the concerts should be banned, only expressing my sadness at how mindless and low-class they seem to be.

Rafi,

I understood your description as saying that Shwekey doesn't care about Rabbinic approval. He just does what's in is head ("ish hayashar b'einav yaaseh").

However, my understanding of his words is that he does ask shailos ("im ata shoeil") and cares about doing the right, proper and modest thing. His reference to doing his own thing was in regards to his style as a performer/vocalist (in comparison to others).

Anyway, I thought he was very close with R' O. Yosef -- has there been any feedback from him on this?

Listening to Yakov Schwekey's answer, he included the words, "I as" & it is known that he follows the advice of Rav Ovadia Yosef.

His concerts are seperate seating with a small section for family groups. Singing, dancing and swaying originated among the early Leviim singers. This has continued among most chazanim, baalei tefillah and daveners. We move, whisper or sing along. Baruch Hashem that there are labedick events to attend and participate in.

Listening to Yakov Schwekey's answer, he included the words, "I as" & it is known that he follows the advice of Rav Ovadia Yosef.

His concerts are seperate seating with a small section for family groups. Singing, dancing and swaying originated among the early Leviim singers. This has continued among most chazanim, baalei tefillah and daveners. We move, whisper or sing along. Baruch Hashem that there are labedick events to attend and participate in.

Just Asking I guess you never saw clips of Elvis the ...., Mick Jagger (especially 10 years ago still singing I can't get no....), etc. There's plenty in the secular rock scene - even the oldies - that we're way above.

In today's imperfect world I have a lot of respect for famous performers who see their role as an opportunity to be a positive influence. People attend these things - I personally don't have patience for them - so better they should be as "tzanua" as they can within the medium.

Sure it would be great if one day we all move toward more balanced modes of entertainment. BE"H we will. And I'll bet you Shweki and a lot of these guys will be part of it.

Shira:

Obviously, I wasn't referring to the types of concerts that were all about sex appeal or mass hysteria, but the ones people went to for the music. I went many times to the Fillmore East, the "temple" of rock music, and never saw a performer acting in such a vulgar fashion to draw attention to himself and to whip up the crowd.

Doubtless, this is what Mick Jagger and those like him did for the sake of teenage girls, but it's hard to understand why that would be a model we should be emulating.

I don't see what the big issue is here.

As cvmay said, Shwekey said 'ani shoeil' - I ask, presumably meaning that he consults Rabbinic authority.

I believe that Shweki is the son of a Sepharadic father, as evidenced by his name, so that would make him Sepharadi, even though his mother is Ashkenazic and he grew up in an Ashkenazic or mixed Sepharadic-Ashkenazic milieu I believe.

So why must he follow the extreme Ashkenazic Haredim?

Re the dancing, etc. - it seems to me to be typical fare for such concerts. Classical concerts are a horse of a different barn.

To I don't get it said...
>>Re the dancing, etc. - it seems to >>me to be typical fare for such >>concerts.

Could be, but I was wondering why he considered his antics tzanua and how sad it is that we don't view that self-assessment as somewhat strange.

How is prancing around on stage, whipping up the cheering masses, consistent with "walking humbly with your G-d"?

"How is prancing around on stage, whipping up the cheering masses, consistent with "walking humbly with your G-d"?"

It's a matter of taste and balance; a popular concert is not a classical music event. Also, any summer camp production(eg, color war cheers or concerts), consists of interacting with the crowd.

I do agree that when there are men and women, even if seated separately, the performer should be more careful, but I would cut Shwekey some slack, as there is a matter of balance.

Keep in mind that a contemporary concert will not be able to sell, if it's entirely dveikus, like on Simchas Torah or classical music; there's an element of "fun" and "entertainment".

It's a matter of taste, but I happen to be a fan of his music, and all the concerts I've been to in NY in recent years, whether his or others, were done in a refined, Tzniyus way, and a Kiddush Hashem, in my view.

personally, I dont care if he asks sheilos or if he doesnt. That is his business, not mine. I ask my sheilos, he can ask his. or not.

While I just about never go to such concerts anyway, it is not because of frumkeit or disapproval of their style, but because it doesnt interest me - I am not into those types of concerts anyway.

But if I was going, I would much prefer to be able to sit next to my wife and kids (esp to keep an eye on them) than to be separated from my wife and sit next to some random stranger I have no interest in sharing the experience with.

I dont get it said "I believe that Shweki is the son of a Sepharadic father, as evidenced by his name, so that would make him Sepharadi, even though his mother is Ashkenazic and he grew up in an Ashkenazic or mixed Sepharadic-Ashkenazic milieu I believe.

So why must he follow the extreme Ashkenazic Haredim?"

I am not sure what you mean by "extreme haredim". Anybody who sends their daughters to any average Bais Yaakov school, or their boys to any average Talmud Torah, knows that the average charedi follows the extreme charedim and does whatever they say. When you registered your kid for school, did you have to sign a takanon with rules designed by the extreme charedim? I did. and I had to bring ishurim from rabbonim about internet use and cellphone use and sign about how my kid would dress, and that they wouldn't be friends with kids from other schools (exaggerated, but that is the result of the draconian rules about no chugim or playing with other kids), what they would and would not wear, how high the collar would be and how low the hem would be and all the other stuff.

We live in a society where the rules are dictated by the people that are being called "extreme charedim", but the regular charedim are towing the line and adapting those rules into normative daily life. So what, pray tell, is an extreme charedi anymore? We all are, because we are all following the dictates of those extreme charedim and adopting them in our lives and routines.

I found this topic fascinating. i took my kids to YBC the other night and was rather shocked/surprised/amused to find that it was very similar to rock concerts I had attended in the good ol' days. Screaming girls ( I mean, how do you scream at little boys in matching sweaters?), the Rock Star style dancing of the choir leader ( who did look a bit daft) and Yeshiva boys and girls getting over-excited. Rav Blau would have had a heart attack. I am a tolerant person who still listens to 80's rock , but from the perspective of a mother, it was a real eye opener! The music was uplifting, the atmosphere electric, but apart from the words, it was very much like a pop concert. Not quite Nirvana in Central Park, but you get the point.

Shades of Grey:
I have nothing against Shwecky. I know nothing about him and assume that he is a wonderful person and a yorei Shomayim.

I was simply commenting on how sad it is that he -- and us -- would seem to be so clueless as to hatznaya lechet in its real sense.

How does one reconcile hatznaya lechet with prancing around the stage like that, showboating for screaming teenagers?

What bothered me was not only that he was doing that -- it's his choice -- but that a seeming yorei Shomayim would still call that "tzanua."

"How does one reconcile hatznaya lechet with prancing"

I don't think you can judge a concert from a clip. There are plenty of times when he is staid. Also, even when "prancing", it can be done in a more tzanua way, as he does.

"i took my kids to YBC the other night and was rather shocked/surprised/amused to find that it was very similar to rock concerts"

I agree that there may be room for improvement. I went to a concert once, where a performer, who besides being a rebbe, is a composer and musician. I told my sister afterwards, who attended separately, that he is also a rebbe, and she said "I could tell".

Here is a link to a wonderful article in the "Community Magazine", just published, about Yaakov Shwekey, with an excerpt about the positive power of (proper) Jewish music:


http://www.communitym.com/article.asp?article_id=101030&article_type=0


"One especially remarkable incident occurred last year, after Yaakov’s performance in the Israeli city of Ranaana during Hol Ha’mo’ed Sukkot. A man, together with his son, waited for Yaakov backstage after the concert. “He basically grabbed me,” Yaakov relates, “and said he absolutely had to speak with me.”

They found a room, and the man told Yaakov his story. He was born and raised in a secular kibbutz, whose members were not simply non-observant, but hostile to Jewish practice. But it so happened that somebody in the kibbutz, for some reason, brought Shwekey’s 2009 album Ad Beli Daiinto the kibbutz, to the place where this man worked. And so one day, as he tended to his duties as usual, the man heard Yaakov’s song Hashiveinu, whose words – “Return us, our Father, to Your Torah, and bring us close, our King, to Your service” – come from the section of the daily Amidaprayer in which we ask Gd to help us repent. Listening to the song, the man began contemplating his life.

“Surely,” he began telling himself, “there must be a higher purpose to all this, besides just working, making money, and then waking up tomorrow and doing the same thing.” These thoughts gradually led the man to rethink his life. “What will be with me? What will be with my life?” he asked himself.

Soon enough, one small step after another, he embraced a Torah lifestyle. He wanted to bring his son – with his kipa and sissit– to Yaakov, to thank him for changing his life.

“I was literally moved to tears,” Yaakov recalls."

Shades of Grey:
As I said, I have no doubt that Mr. (Rabbi?) Schwecky is a wonderful person whose music has great appeal for many people.

My question was how showboating -- even part of the time -- and hatznaya lechet are compatible.

Again, the only reason I'm asking is because the performer seems to think that it is.

"My question was how showboating -- even part of the time -- and hatznaya lechet are compatible. "

It's a good point.

I think there is a balance for everything. There is some interaction with the crowd, teens and even adults get excited and want to relate to the performer.

At the (in)famous Lipa concert("The Event"), there were funny dressed dancers doing "shtick". A concert, perhaps by definition, is not totally "tzanua", but one can try to be as "aidel", refined, as possible.

sex happens at these events...1 of the top names was caught with drugs ,girls of 16-17 ...when they ( shweckey and fried ) were asked by the greatest rabbis to desist in jerusalem they refused...(kol ha kavod to MBD who cancelled a concert in jerusalem )...

and I'll bet it happens in the shul basement on Simchas Torah too. is that the performer's issue? or the shul Rabbi's?

Oh for crying out loud - lighten up. I'm not a particular fan of shwekey but for those that are, his music is enjoyable, fun, religious and not sexualised. He provides an acceptable valve in which people can just relax and even be moved by the content of his songs. So he jumps about a bit - BIG DEAL. There are no sexaul or non-tsniyut movements. The rather puritanical view of Judaism some people seem to have is, may I venture to say, not reminiscent of an unnamed 'navi'. I seem to recall miriam had a dance or two.