Rebbe Nachman DID promise.....
http://www.breslev.co.il/html/rebbe_nachmans_gravesite.aspx?id=21&language=english

as i've said before, it is stories like this that make the concept of daas torah a joke.

the discussion is specifically about promising good din because of tzedaka. I dont know if for other thing can or cannot be promised.

And just because something is promised, who is to say the promiser has the authority to do so and that God has to listen? :-)

How is this behavior related to halachic Judaism?

the issue is making a joke out of gedolim. when this happens, the effects are felt in all areas be it daas torah, psak, community leadership, unity of the community, etc.

Anyone who believed such a promise and gave money is an idiot. No human being can promise that someone is going to be zocheh b'din, certainly not for simply giving a little tzedaka.

I didn't like being bullied into signing up for a Horaat Keva in order to be signed for a good year.

This tactic from a local tzedaka is no different than the Kupat Ha"ir/Vaad Rabbonim methods.

so dont sign up. give your donation, or dont, but dont be bullied into anything.

While BTYA helped in the Kupa campaign, at least they announced no segulos are being promised.

Well Rafi, BTYA needs all of the zchuyot that they can get after their wholesale cherem on Lema'an Achai once again.

I hope that HKB''H shows their Rav and members the same compassion that they show for Lema'an Achai and its poor.

even though there is no public collecting for Lemaan Achai done in BTYA right now, there are LA reps who daven in the shul. A number of people gave me money for Lemaan Achai and anybody who wants can give me money for LA, or to one of the other LA reps who are in BTYA.

The problem is that in BTYA the members generally do whatever the rav tells them to.

His open cherem against Lema'an Achai filters down to the starry eyed congregants who follow along w/o knowing even why they are doing this.

How many in the kehilla would continue to allow this ban if they knew that it was instituted simply because their rav wants to punish a board member of Lema'an Achai who disagrees with the rav's opinions about reporting child abuse?

cant believe I am opening this up... but just to point out (not to justify or take sides), Rav Malinowitz's opposition to Lemaan Achai, and this is my opinion based on conversations with various people involved many times but I could be not accurately stating something, is not because of their different opinion in how to deal with cases of alleged child abuse, but in how Lemaan Achai dealt with certain situations, talking to the press, certain statements that were made that were seen as demeaning to community rabbonim, and the like. Not just the fact that they have a different opinion

Rafi,

You didn't "open this up" your rav did when he chose to act like a child.

"Lema'an Achai" never spoke to the press or defamed rabbonim.

Read the JP article.

Rav Malinowitz doesn't agree with David Morris and punishes the poor because of it. Period.

Did anyone who saw David Morris's public degradation by Rav Malinowitz one Shabbos afternoon ask David for mechila?

Has BTYA asked the poor families of Lema'an Achai for mechila?

Not even Yom Kippur atones for Bein Adom L'Chavairo.

The holy rollers of BTYA can run but they can't hide from the "Eyin Roeh and Ozen Shoma'as".

Helping the Kupa for their campaign will not give kappara for the sins against Lema'an Achai.

No matter what "His Holiness" the Rav might tell you all.

Well, David Morris did say that he feels the local Rabbonim sided with the perps rather than the victims, but presumably he feels that it's true and was important to be said. Whereas from the Rabbis' perspective it wasn't true. So deciding who you side with means deciding whether it was true or not. Which most people have no way of knowing.

RBS Resident,

It's a shame that you didn't read the article before posting here.

THIS is the exact quote:
. "In most of the schools, a rabbinic authority has the final say, and in many cases ends up believing the perpetrators' story over the victims', he says"

"I don't know why the community leaders chose to protect the adults over the children, but we hope that we can now start to get the word out that children have to be listened to and protected at all costs."

In neither of these quotes does David Morris "say that he feels the local Rabbonim sided with the perps rather than the victims"

He said a rabbinic authority of the school.

This is not a blanket condemnation of rabbonim just some who take the side of the perp.

Perhaps Rav Malinowitz is angry because he is a rabbinic authority in schools and has sided with the perp. So let him be honest and say that David is talking about ME because I believe perps over children.

Instead he has concocted a lie that David degrades charedi rabbonim (which David never did or said..READ the article).

In any case this still doesn't explain why Malinowitz punishes Lema'an Achai for David.

Would this then justify the boycott of Jo's Club by those who wish to protect children from molestors?

After all Jo's Club represents BTYA as much as David Morris represents Lema'an Achai.

To "Get the Facts Straight"

- don't jump to conclusions. First of all, you should know that I am basically on David Morris' side. Second, I did indeed read the article.

In both of these quotes, David Morris does indeed say that he feels the local Rabbonim sided with the perps rather than the victims! Not EVERY rabbi, obviously, but a significant number of cases.

Now, if this is true (as I am inclined to believe to be the case), then it's okay that he said it. If (as from Rav CZM's perspective) it's not true, then it's slandering the local rabbis.

The issue of banning LA from openly fundraising in BTYA is an entirely separate matter, and yes, I agree that I do not understand why LA would be punished, even from the perspective that David Morris was wrong.

Rafi,

Am I alone in being a member of BT, liking the rav and yet severely disagreeing about his ban on Lema'an Achai?

I just think that he has gone too far on this one.

I was also turned off by the heavy campaign for the Kupa. I honestly think that it was another "patch" on Lema'an Achai rather than true all out support for Kupa.

It saddens me that a great organization has to be the victim here.

During davening on Yom Kippur I was concerned that perhaps our kehilla will not be zoche because of our policies.

Is there anyone else in BT that shares my concerns or does everyone blindly trust what the Rav is doing?

the fact that I still daven there, still am a contact for Lemaan Achai and that other people gave me money for LA on erev Yom Kippur (not many, but it happened) means you are not alone...

Geez, does every topic has to come back to LA and Rav M / BTYA?

If you work on it, maybe you can get Rav M arrested for the Kennedy assassinations too!

He did not ban LA, he did not tell anyone not to give them money. He just doesn't allow them to do any active fundraising in the shul. He didn't tell any LA reps who daven there that they should stop.

So many of you have blown this whole thing way out of proportion with your dramatic cries about how Rav M has punished the poor. Puh-leeze. Do you think anyone at BTYA stopped helping the poor? Or are you now making a distinction between LA's poor and Kupah's poor? If you are, then you're just exploiting the poor to advance your attacks on Rav M and BTYA. You're disgusting.

Both LA and Kupah help our city's poor. Give to both and shut up!
Can we all just move on, please?

Oh, and just to get back to the topic - the Kupah campaign was not at all like the Kupat Ha'Ir campaign. It didn't make any promises. We all know that teshuva tefilla and tzedaka are maavir es roa ha'gezeria. So I don't see what's wrong with mentioning that. That's a far cry from the promise made by KupHir.

Kehilla Keren Lev Kupat Ha'Ir, being asked to sign up for a horaat keva is no different from the tactics of Kupat Ha'ir???? I don't see that at all. Could you please explain that?

Saab,

If everyone would give to Kupa and LA it would be fine.

I think, however, that this is not the case.

If even one person stops giving to LA because of Malinowitz's position then the damage is done.

As a matter of fact, lfi halacha, if it can be proven that BTYA member donations are down then Malinowitz could be chaiav in bais Din.

To say that it's ok because he only banned fundraising activities in the shul is being naive.

The flock in BTYA follow his every word and action so if he takes a stand so will they.

Perhaps someone should ask Lema'an Achai if there has been a decrease in donations from BTYA. If the answer is yes there must be some major soul searching on the part of the kehilla.

For even if you say that the rav has the "pletzes" to answer to Shomayim I doubt that most of the shul are in the same position.

People outside of RBS who have heard about this think that is simple immaturity at best and down right rishus at worst.

Saab,
you should get a life and realize that we are living in 5771 and these tactics are not reflective of a supposedly intelligent and "open minded" kehilla.

I don't care what the politics are.

I am just saddened that after all of these years there is no Lema'an Achai presence in the shul.

There is no good reason and it makes me realize that we are not quite as tolerant that I had believed.

Collecting tzedaka under false pretenses?

Does anyone remember this?

http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2008/03/local-rbs-tzedaka-corrupting-words-of.html

Be Normal,

"If even one person stops giving to LA because of Malinowitz's position then the damage is done.
As a matter of fact, lfi halacha, if it can be proven that BTYA member donations are down then Malinowitz could be chaiav in bais Din."

So you're paskening now, that al pi halacha, one has to give every tzedakah organization? You mean a person may not decide which organizations he chooses to support? Gosh, I didn't know that!

If that's the case, why stop with just these 2 organizations? What about any of the other tzedaka orgs? Are BTYA memebers going to have to answer to Shamayim for all the organizations they didn't give to, even if they gave the proper amount of maaser to other ones? That's a big chidush.

You further pasken that LA can take Rav M to bais din for the decrease in donations coming from BTYA? Really?!! Please tell me where you got this. BTW, I love where you get your proofs from - from what people outside RBS think. Now there's a reliable source. Hey, I know people in chul that think that RBS is a neighbourhood in Yrslm. I guess therefore it is, since that's what people outside RBS think!

"To say that it's ok because he only banned fundraising activities in the shul is being naive.
The flock in BTYA follow his every word and action so if he takes a stand so will they."

Well then, I guess there are some pretty disobedient sheep at BTYA since I know plenty of them who still donate to LA.

Sorry, but your comments were not Normal.

To the rest of you who are still Sad Sad Sad that this situation continues, I think it's because you're still fanning the flames with this at every opportunity. Seems like almost every post Rafi writes, on any topic at all, someone out there twists it back to this one.

Wanna,

While I agree that many topics do revert back to this one in this post it is on target as it is dealing with tzedaka.

And Normal is correct..if someone causes monetary damage to another because of his actions he may be brought to Bais Din.

This is not to say that the Bais Din will poskin in favor of the organization...however it is a shaila.

There is a big difference between not giving to an organization and stopping donations to an organization that you have given to regularly in the past.

You can try and defend the actions here but it doesn't hold water.

If R' Malinowitz has a problem with David Morris so be it.

What does that have to do with Lema'an Achai?

Wanna Saab,

I appreciate that you have appointed yourself apologist for BTYA and its Rav.

However the only one "fanning the flames" is the kehilla that blatantly makes in your face appeals for Kupa and won't say a word about Lema'an Achai.

They started this hatred and their continuance of the "cherem" fans the flames.

Just give it up already and let's try and have shalom in this town.