(this is a featured post and will stay at the top for the foreseeable future.. scroll down for new posts) -------------------------------...
Apr 25, 2007
no flags flying - a different take
One thing I noticed differently about this years Yom Ha'Atzmaut from other years was the lack of Palestinian flags and black flags (mourning) flying in RBS B. Normally there are about a dozen or so PA flags and another dozen or so black flags flying in RBS B to protest Yom Ha'Atzmaut. This year, as far as I know, there were none.
Granted, they held their annual protest rally in sackcloth, but this year there were no flags flying from the windows in the neighborhood.
and why is the flag on ponevezh a shonda? I understand the story behind it is that Rav Kahaneman got the land and funding from the government for Ponevezh yeshiva and as hakaras hatov decided the flag must fly on the building.
the NK were horrible people for going to meet with abugaboo in Iran, because that addressed the holocaust. but to fly a sworn enemy's flag, someone who every day is actively killing more jews, is acceptable..HMMMMMMM..
actually not. they are horrible for flying the enemy flag as well. What I said was that this year they did not fly the flags, so there is some improvement over previous years
my prev comment was for the issue of flying the PA flag.
here's an excerpt from the article about Ponivesh Yeshiva and the Israeli flag. From the moderator: "they openly express their opposition to the State’s existence, and once a year they have a utilitarian purpose in putting up the flag - if they do, they can get funding".
I believe we have a word for this in the English language "WHORE" Someone explain the difference to me.
don't believe everything you read. they know nothing. do you really believe the ponevizher rav would have sold out on something he believes in for a little bit of money? he went around the world raising money and would not need to sell himself out for that. If he put it up he felt it was fine.
I thought that they fky the fkag because they are the tallest/largetst building in the area. Just like Neve Yerushalayim has to fly the flag on certain days due to its size/location ....
A big part of the problem is this: these yeshivot: mir,brisk,satmer,ponevitch and more....and lakewood and such in the US, are the default leaders of the orthodox world. They set the tone and the culture and the rules for what is orthodox and what is not.
Of course one could say, "I am an orthodox jew regardless of what those guys do or say." But you can't; not really. Because I am as secular and atheistic as they come and I believe myself to be an orthodox jew. So the problem is this, the leading institutions of the orthodox world make it very clear that there is a war between their version of judaism and other types and furthermore, they make it clear that Israel is not to be supported.
And so, after much consideration, I have decided to stop going to my weekly shiur with the kollel rabbi and have decided to end my financial support for orthodox institutions.
I am too ashamed of this version of judaism to participate anymore.
the ponevishet rov is not whom I was reffering to, g-d forbid. Unfortunately, he was not clear, loud, nor specific enough to h8is yeshiva and kehilla clarifying his reasons. Therefor, the follow up is people saying and behaving and denigrating as they wish.
"do you really believe the ponevizher rav would have sold out on something he believes in for a little bit of money?"
i too did not understand all the comments there of this nature. haredim are not known for "compromising" with their ideals. if he did it, it was not for the money.
i'm going to have to go with your brother on the lady-of-ill-repute comment, but to be fair this is they way politics works in israel. pretty much everyone is ready to get into bed with anyone to get a chance at the money/power.
1st: I disagree. I go to a completely egalitarian temple, my daughter goes to a conservative/israeli style gan, and I travel extensively in the secular jewish world. I do not hear the hate filled rants by the leaders of those communities that I do from the right wing yeshivot. The subject of ortho jews simply does not come up that often.
2nd, yes there are individuals on the "left" who are angry at the "right." Again, not the leaders but individuals and let me give a basic every day example. I have a freind who was terribly injured in the israeli army. He looks at the people in yeshiva and knows that statistically if the "right" did not have carte blanche exemptions some yeshiva bochurim would take the hits that he and the mostly secular army take instead. Not that anyone wishes death or injury on another. However, when a parent loses a child and thinks perhaps it would have been someone elses if the burden were shared equally, that causes grief and anguish. But then you top it off with the fact that these bochurim are being indocternated by the culture of the yeshivot to hate Israel, all the time taking as much money as they can from the State and it is easier to understand why an individual mught be upset at the right wing.
When was the last time a group of secular jews threw stones at ortho jews for not driving on shabat? When was the last time secular jews rioted because women are covered while walking down the street. when was the last time a group of rioters dressed up ovadya yosef in a nazi uniform and burned his effigy because they disagreed with him politically (I saw this done to rabin's image in meah shearim/geula with my own eyes) When was the last time the secular rioted to protect a baby killer on the logic of 'how dare the police assert any authority in our region.' And pointing these issues out is not hate of the right, it is a response to the right's hate.
Ponevich yeshiva put up theirs. Look at the comments... truly a shanda. See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=6296#comments
ReplyDeleteThat's a good thing, it's time.
ReplyDeleteand why is the flag on ponevezh a shonda? I understand the story behind it is that Rav Kahaneman got the land and funding from the government for Ponevezh yeshiva and as hakaras hatov decided the flag must fly on the building.
ReplyDeleteI read those comments on the yw site about the flag over the yeshivah and I am so ashamed.
ReplyDeleteEvery time I read social commentary by "orthodox" jews the vast majority are hate-filled xenophobic theocratic rants.
I am glad and proud to be a secular jew. Those words of hate, which includes anon calling it a shonda, bring shame on our collective family.
in general I dislike that site. this is one of the reasons
ReplyDeleteso let me get this:
ReplyDeletethe NK were horrible people for going to meet with abugaboo in Iran, because that addressed the holocaust. but to fly a sworn enemy's flag, someone who every day is actively killing more jews, is acceptable..HMMMMMMM..
yeah, I got it now.
actually not. they are horrible for flying the enemy flag as well. What I said was that this year they did not fly the flags, so there is some improvement over previous years
ReplyDeletemy prev comment was for the issue of flying the PA flag.
ReplyDeletehere's an excerpt from the article about Ponivesh Yeshiva and the Israeli flag. From the moderator: "they openly express their opposition to the State’s existence, and once a year they have a utilitarian purpose in putting up the flag - if they do, they can get funding".
I believe we have a word for this in the English language "WHORE" Someone explain the difference to me.
don't believe everything you read. they know nothing. do you really believe the ponevizher rav would have sold out on something he believes in for a little bit of money? he went around the world raising money and would not need to sell himself out for that. If he put it up he felt it was fine.
ReplyDeleteI thought that they fky the fkag because they are the tallest/largetst building in the area. Just like Neve Yerushalayim has to fly the flag on certain days due to its size/location ....
ReplyDeleteA big part of the problem is this: these yeshivot: mir,brisk,satmer,ponevitch and more....and lakewood and such in the US, are the default leaders of the orthodox world. They set the tone and the culture and the rules for what is orthodox and what is not.
ReplyDeleteOf course one could say, "I am an orthodox jew regardless of what those guys do or say." But you can't; not really. Because I am as secular and atheistic as they come and I believe myself to be an orthodox jew.
So the problem is this, the leading institutions of the orthodox world make it very clear that there is a war between their version of judaism and other types and furthermore, they make it clear that Israel is not to be supported.
And so, after much consideration, I have decided to stop going to my weekly shiur with the kollel rabbi and have decided to end my financial support for orthodox institutions.
I am too ashamed of this version of judaism to participate anymore.
the ponevishet rov is not whom I was reffering to, g-d forbid. Unfortunately, he was not clear, loud, nor specific enough to h8is yeshiva and kehilla clarifying his reasons. Therefor, the follow up is people saying and behaving and denigrating as they wish.
ReplyDeleterafi:
ReplyDelete"do you really believe the ponevizher rav would have sold out on something he believes in for a little bit of money?"
i too did not understand all the comments there of this nature. haredim are not known for "compromising" with their ideals. if he did it, it was not for the money.
i'm going to have to go with your brother on the lady-of-ill-repute comment, but to be fair this is they way politics works in israel. pretty much everyone is ready to get into bed with anyone to get a chance at the money/power.
dan g:
ReplyDelete"Every time I read social commentary by "orthodox" jews the vast majority are hate-filled xenophobic theocratic rants."
without choosing sides, i think it is fair to say the hatred flows full force in both directions.
Funny, I was going to read the post at Yeshivaworld, but opted not to. I guess I'm better off.
ReplyDeleteari,
ReplyDelete1st: I disagree. I go to a completely egalitarian temple, my daughter goes to a conservative/israeli style gan, and I travel extensively in the secular jewish world. I do not hear the hate filled rants by the leaders of those communities that I do from the right wing yeshivot. The subject of ortho jews simply does not come up that often.
2nd, yes there are individuals on the "left" who are angry at the "right." Again, not the leaders but individuals and let me give a basic every day example. I have a freind who was terribly injured in the israeli army. He looks at the people in yeshiva and knows that statistically if the "right" did not have carte blanche exemptions some yeshiva bochurim would take the hits that he and the mostly secular army take instead. Not that anyone wishes death or injury on another. However, when a parent loses a child and thinks perhaps it would have been someone elses if the burden were shared equally, that causes grief and anguish. But then you top it off with the fact that these bochurim are being indocternated by the culture of the yeshivot to hate Israel, all the time taking as much money as they can from the State and it is easier to understand why an individual mught be upset at the right wing.
When was the last time a group of secular jews threw stones at ortho jews for not driving on shabat? When was the last time secular jews rioted because women are covered while walking down the street. when was the last time a group of rioters dressed up ovadya yosef in a nazi uniform and burned his effigy because they disagreed with him politically (I saw this done to rabin's image in meah shearim/geula with my own eyes)
When was the last time the secular rioted to protect a baby killer on the logic of 'how dare the police assert any authority in our region.'
And pointing these issues out is not hate of the right, it is a response to the right's hate.
So I dispute your assertion on many levels.