And isn't that why Hashem said k-chatzi halaila: while we might think we're being exact, we probably aren't....

I like that image, not wanting to encourage HKBH to sit over us with a stopwatch or fine measurements.

Are those people who are OCD in their Bein Adom LaMakom as OCD in their Bein Adom LaChaveiro?

I don't agree. Hashem does measure us exactly. A split second is the difference between being chayav misa or kares and doing something that is completely mutar. The chachamim put harchakos in because they know about human imperfection but Hashem measures exactly.

We should try to daven as close to netz as is possible. Now with atomic clocks, it's pretty easy to daven exactly netz if you try so why not do what you can?

re Humanly Imperfect..: Hashem didn't say k-chatzi halayla.

I think that there is a lot of OCD going on.

With davening, tzniyus, kashrus,eruvin, and the list goes on.

People adhere to chumros that they don't understand for reasons that they don't understand.

Our fear should be of HaShem, not our neighbors, schools, kid's roshei yeshiva or shadchanim.

And to second what selective said...if these same OCD afflicated would be as obsessed with their fellow Jews (welafre, parnasa, etc.) then their OCD about their avodas haShem would be easier to tolerate.

First, my pet peeve: The word is hanetz, with the heh at the beginning of the word being part of the shoresh; it does not function as the heh hayidiyah. The word netz refers to a non-kosher bird.

David,
Comparing kareis/chiyuv misa to beginning the amida a few seconds before or after sunrise is taking things a little too far. It also misses the larger point; I find it hard to imagine that the honorific of "vatikin" was originally bestowed upon those who displayed unrivalled skill when it came to timekeeping. In fact, they probably kept time no better than their contemporaries.

Further, most people don't have atomic clocks controlling their actions. They may have watches which can synchronize with an atomic clock somewhere, but that introduces a whole lot of room for error. For example:
- the synchronization can never be instantaneous or completely account for signal latency;
- the clock which synchronizes only does so periodically and, not being an atomic clock itself, doesn't keep perfect time;
- a person's reaction time to his clock/watch is inherently imperfect;
- calculations of sunrise at a particular location involve approximations (very good ones, but approximations nonetheless), and methods for figuring out one's exact location to begin with are imperfect.

I'll admit that all of the above probably amounts to a very small total error. (According to wikipedia, the accuracy of clocks inaccurately marketed as "atomic clocks" is on the order of a second.) But you can get the same level of accuracy by setting a decent watch to the tone on the radio at the top of every hour, without having to exhibit and/or rely on technology which you don't really understand. (If you did, I'm betting you wouldn't call it an atomic clock; if your shul is located at CERN, the NIST, or some other similar facility, and you have access to a true atomic clock during shachris, please accept my apologies.)

Re: kachatzot - You're correct that Hashem said "chatzot", since that is when, b'foal, the 10th pague took place. But the use of the term "kachatzot" by Hashems navi par excellence is a good indication that approximate times are suitable for our use.

Davening Netz is a big thing for mekubalim, but even so, this very question was asked of the Rashash (about waiting for the exact moment) and he answered: "We're not ovdei ha-shemesh"...

Yoni, I'm not comparing kareis to davening at netz. I'm just commenting on the original post which said that,"Hashem does not stand with a stopwatch checking the people." Hashem measures things exactly and the difference between when you're chayav kares and when it's permissible is a split second.

I know that we can't be perfect but there's no reason that we should not try be as close as we can be. In the times of the Rashash it was a lot harder to daven almost exactly at netz than it is today. Nowadays, with (what are commonly referred to as) atomic clocks, it's fairly simple without even knowing where the sun is to daven at (almost) exactly netz. I don't understand why we wouldn't try our best. Once you're already getting up early to daven netz it just makes sense to do it as well as you can.

Not sure why many feel the need to talk about other mitzvos when we're discussing one thing. It's true that someone might be more careful about davening exactly at netz and not very nice to people. That doesn't mean he should stop being careful about this halacha.

Finally, Yoni, the fact that Moshe said kachatzot has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Makes me wonder whether some people just don't relate to the tendency of the other half of the population to turn religion into OCD....

"Not sure why many feel the need to talk about other mitzvos when we're discussing one thing. It's true that someone might be more careful about davening exactly at netz and not very nice to people. That doesn't mean he should stop being careful about this halacha."

If you truly believe that HaShem is "standing" with a stopwatch, etc. then for sure these people should expend their energies on mitzvos with other people.

HaShem can and will forgive something between another and Him but He won't forgive when the avla is to another person.

Think about that while you're scrambling to daven at HaNetz hachama.

Anonymous: "HaShem can and will forgive something between another and Him but He won't forgive when the avla is to another person."

Where do you get that from?

For example, I thought Chilul Hashem is the Great Unforgivable sin (even suffering and death don't achieve kapara)?

...ie. it's worse even than Murder (for which death atones)?

(I'm not saying missing Neitz is a chilul Hashem, or being nasty to people is murder - I'm just giving illustrative examples of where your generalization doesn't seem to work).

yoni r. said:

irst, my pet peeve: The word is hanetz, with the heh at the beginning of the word being part of the shoresh; it does not function as the heh hayidiyah. The word netz refers to a non-kosher bird.

You are correct the heh is not the heh hayidiyah, but it is probably not part of the shoresh either. Most lexica list it under the geminate shoresh nun-tsade-tsade, and the heh is due to the hiphil conjugation.

I find it interesting that Rav Dr. Zini is a talmid hacham, and a well regarded mathematician. If anyone could appreciate the importance of exactitude, he could. Yet, the halacha doesn't seem to support ever increasing levels of such an approach. (This is really part of a larger mahloket about the place of exactitude and advancing technologies, but not for now...)

I find it interesting that another talmid hacham and mathematician, Rav N. E. Rabinowitz of Maaleh Adumim, takes the same position. In the 80s I discussed this with him, and he was adamant that standing in davening while watching the sweep second hand to time the beginning of the amidah was not at all what the halacha requires.

Name,

The halacha states that before Yom Kippur one must mechila from another that he harmed because " Yom kippur will be mechaper for bain Adom LaMakom but HaShem won't forgive Bain Adom Lachaveiro until he was mefais the other".

Also one can be mechallel HaShem through bein adom lachaveiro mitzvos as well.

A talmid chochum that acts in an in honorable manner is also a Chilul HaShem.

David wrote: I know that we can't be perfect but there's no reason that we should not try be as close as we can be.

I guess different people have different ideas of what perfection means - sounds like David likes the precision of when to start HAnetz while some others here would rather not risk distracting the perfection of their kavana during HAnetz.

Anonymous wrote: I think that there is a lot of OCD going on.... davening, tzniyus, kashrus,eruvin.... chumros that they don't understand....

Not so sure all that falls under OCD. Also OCD doesn't lead one to snub others - it keeps one way too wrapped up in their own actions to see a bigger picture. There is a difference.