Sep 11, 2012
Pashkevil: Limiting The Allowance of Davening With People Who Sin
On the Yomim Noraim, the High Holidays, we say "על דעת המקום ועל דעת הקהל, בישיבה של מעלה ובישיבה של מטה, אנו מתירים להתפלל עם העבריינים" - With the agreement of God and of the community... we allow to pray with the transgressors.
To be more precise, we actually only say that on the night of Yom Kippur, so maybe on Rosh Hashana, or even on Yom Kippur by day, we should not daven with avaryanim.
Back to the point, I'll bet you did not know that there are different types of avaryanim, transgressors, and that this allowance to pray with them only applies to some and not others...
Now you might be thinking that perhaps people involved in petty theft should be allowed into the shul, but not murderers and rapists. Perhaps people running small fraud, but not large Ponzi schemes. I don't know - I am sure you can come up with some sort of set of guidelines detailing lists of crimes that can be ignored for prayer and another set that is still beyond the pale.
Where would carrying a "smartphone" fit in?
Check out this pashkevil (the image was snagged from a friend's Facebook page):
According to this pashkevil, Rav Chaim Kanievsky said that the allowance for davening with transgressors does not apply to people carrying non-kosher phones. It actually reads: The words of Rav Chaim Kanievsky regarding those who hold iPhones and similar: While we are allowed to daven with the transgressors, it is still better to daven in a minyan that does not have anyone breaching the fence who holds these impure devices, for when he is present the prayer is less accepted (as brought in the Tzlach in Brachos 8a)."
Considering that the Tzla"ch, also known as Rav Yechezkal Landau, lived in the 1700s, I was curious how he mentioned smartphones or iphones in his sefer over 200 years ago, or else how the pashkevil people perhaps corrupted Rav Kanievsky's words. I found (thanks to Hebrewbooks.org) that the tzla"ch said, while discussing the issue of a person davening by himself or with the tzibbur, that he says he learned from the Rambam that the prayer of the tzibbur is heard only when it does not have sinners. When it does have sinners Hashem is at least not disgusted by the prayers. (he is debating whether one should at times prefer to daven at home rather than go to shul, but he seems to be against that even when sinners are present in shul).
I dont know what Rav Kanievsky actually said, but the Tzlach does not seem to differentiate between types of sins, with iphones being among the worst. If you dont want to daven with sinners, it should not matter whether he is carrying an iphone (obviously not on Rosh Hashana) (if an iphone is really a transgression) or if he dug out a chalal for his apartment without registering it, or if he smokes, or if he is a murderer or rapist.
Good luck finding a minyan with no sinners. Whatever happened to "There is no person in the land who does not sin"?
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To be more precise, we actually only say that on the night of Yom Kippur, so maybe on Rosh Hashana, or even on Yom Kippur by day, we should not daven with avaryanim.
Back to the point, I'll bet you did not know that there are different types of avaryanim, transgressors, and that this allowance to pray with them only applies to some and not others...
Now you might be thinking that perhaps people involved in petty theft should be allowed into the shul, but not murderers and rapists. Perhaps people running small fraud, but not large Ponzi schemes. I don't know - I am sure you can come up with some sort of set of guidelines detailing lists of crimes that can be ignored for prayer and another set that is still beyond the pale.
Where would carrying a "smartphone" fit in?
Check out this pashkevil (the image was snagged from a friend's Facebook page):
According to this pashkevil, Rav Chaim Kanievsky said that the allowance for davening with transgressors does not apply to people carrying non-kosher phones. It actually reads: The words of Rav Chaim Kanievsky regarding those who hold iPhones and similar: While we are allowed to daven with the transgressors, it is still better to daven in a minyan that does not have anyone breaching the fence who holds these impure devices, for when he is present the prayer is less accepted (as brought in the Tzlach in Brachos 8a)."
Considering that the Tzla"ch, also known as Rav Yechezkal Landau, lived in the 1700s, I was curious how he mentioned smartphones or iphones in his sefer over 200 years ago, or else how the pashkevil people perhaps corrupted Rav Kanievsky's words. I found (thanks to Hebrewbooks.org) that the tzla"ch said, while discussing the issue of a person davening by himself or with the tzibbur, that he says he learned from the Rambam that the prayer of the tzibbur is heard only when it does not have sinners. When it does have sinners Hashem is at least not disgusted by the prayers. (he is debating whether one should at times prefer to daven at home rather than go to shul, but he seems to be against that even when sinners are present in shul).
I dont know what Rav Kanievsky actually said, but the Tzlach does not seem to differentiate between types of sins, with iphones being among the worst. If you dont want to daven with sinners, it should not matter whether he is carrying an iphone (obviously not on Rosh Hashana) (if an iphone is really a transgression) or if he dug out a chalal for his apartment without registering it, or if he smokes, or if he is a murderer or rapist.
Good luck finding a minyan with no sinners. Whatever happened to "There is no person in the land who does not sin"?
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I'm pretty sure that there are poskim who say the exact opposite of this tzlach.
ReplyDeleteThink Helbana in the Ketoret and Arava in the 4 Minim.
yes. I didnt remember specific names, so i did not want to mention it incorrectly. I too remember hearing that on yomim noraim we are *supposed* to daven with the avaryanim...
ReplyDeleteanyways, the tzlach, as I showed, does not differentiate between different types of avaryanim, so there is no basis to say that people who use iphones or other non-kosher devices are any worse than anyone else and negatively affect the tzibburs prayer.
Going back to the Daf Yomi a few weeks ago it speaks about how far one most go away from Tzo'ah-excrement before one can daven. I had a shailah. In my eyes, a person who spits at another Jew is worse than Tzo'ah, so how far away must one be from him to daven. I.m.h.o. that person (excuse the expression) stinks up the entire room, so I don't think one can daven in the same room as the spitter.
ReplyDeleteMay Hashem Yisborach put true Ahava in our hearts for all of Klal Yisrael !!
Seriously, though, in Temple times, how many people were really "Talmudey Chachamim"? There were a good number of "Amei Ha'aretz", as well as many different sects, and all attended the Beit HaMikdash and were welcomed. I think that should be a good lesson for all those who think the way of the Pashkevil: When it comes to davening before G-d, all are welcome and considered righteous.
ReplyDelete