I am so happy this morning! I think that we can all be happy that the court got a stinging defeat. Thank God, with a even higher turnout, it just proved how many thousands more frum Jews there are in Bet Shemesh. This a once a lifetime kiddush Hashem. The supposed "fraud" party got nearly 1,000 now votes than last time.
The only thing you should be writing is your sincere apology to the haredi community and to Abutbol. You accused Abutbol and the whole hareidi community of systemic fraud in the last elections. These new results prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that last election there was 36 fraudulent votes done by a few individuals and not systemic fraud as you all accused us of. Its time to be a true heroe and admit you were wrong. We are waiting......
a. I made no such accusation. some people did, and the courts confirmed it. b. a win in a second election proves nothing about the first, just like a loss would not have proven that all haredim are fraudsters. it was as stupid a claim as the one you are making now. he campaigned, he rallied his troops, he got more people to come vote, it shows nothing about who did or did not vote the first time.
Have you read this articla by a journalist who actually looked through the evidence and how the judges came to their decision? http://www.nrg.co.il/app/index.php?do=blog&encr_id=79974780b5e0d394fddbd1a00f4f21d3&id=4899
Either you believe it or you don't. It's disingenuous to claim that you made no such accusation if you're presenting it as a fact on your blog.
I'm not telling you what to think or what's right, but you can't say that you have taken no side in that debate.
Actually, anon of 8:44, you should be sad. A large section of your community who don't believe in voting, gave up on their principles just to put Moshe in. Another crack in the fantasy of "Daas Torah". Without them Eli would have won.
Most outsiders don't really understand those communities of kano'im or relate to them in general. I recognize that it makes everyone feel better to think that Eli lost because the other side gave up on their principles, but it would be pretty silly of us to assume we know that to be the case. (or at least we should try to understand their reasoning before assuming this to be the case)
Anon of 8:44, one could just as easily claim that because Abutbul won by 200 less votes than last time, that proves that there were 200 fraudulent votes, and not 36 as the charedim claimed!
There were 7% more voters in this election than in the last one.
There were also differing circumstances because there's no way for things to be exactly the same and just the fact of the re-vote probably swung many people to the opposite side they had been the last time.
Anon 8:44 You are making a big mistake. Youre assuming that the Cohen supporters really thought there was wide spread fraud. Youre assuming he and his followers really believe the ridiculous court ruling (which our blogger seems to believe as fact). I think they just jumped on the anti-chareidi sentiment in the whole country, and did whatever it takes to become mayor. I dont think he thinks chareidim are all a bunch of crooks. He just used whatever powers are at his disposal to become mayor. And, fortunately, he lost. All the tactics legal and illegal, dirty and clean, political and inciteful, did not help him in this second chance race. BH !
Win 8:57 Youre making a mistake. Those that voted, voted WITH daas torah, and those whose daas torah said not to vote, didnt vore. Plenty of kanoim poskim said to vote in this election, as the main point here was not who is mayor, but Kiddush Hashem or c"v the opposite. This includes Rav Vosner from BB, Rav Zundel Kroiser, Rav Berland and others. Rav Tzvi Cheshin had an interesting take - he said that legally the election was won fair anda square by Abutbol last time. Legally 36 illegal votes do not overturn the election, regardless of the "math" his brother and his court buddies concocted. Therefore the position was stolen from Abutbol, and there is a mitzvah of hashavas hagzeila to do what you can to return it to him.
Charlie, very interesting. So you're saying that a lot of people who didn't vote in the last election, did vote in this election, for Abutbul. And yet he won by less votes than in the last one...
I did not prove that Cohen was able to bring out more new voters than Abutbol. My point was to point out the fallacy and contradiction of Charlie admitting that Abutbul got many voters this time that he did not get last time, and yet simultaneously claiming to have "proven" that there were only 36 fraudulent votes.
Let's all work on ..................... loving every Jew. Let's bring Ahavah back to our wonderful city. After all we're all brothers and sisters. We can and do disagree on many things like any family, but let us respect each other and bring out the deep love that we should have for each other. May Hashem bless all of us with the ultimate peace and blessings. I love you all We're all family with the same Father in heaven!!
Unlike his website which aims to reach every Jew (and especially their wallet) the referenced person attacks on Facebook and other media anyone who doesn't fit his "bill".
I clearly remember the last elections when he was publicly rude and insulting to Eli Cohen and supporters near the Matnas. Some of it is actually on video.
I wonder how his Aish followers would react to that display of "Ahavas Yisrael".
I'm also no longer sure I know who we're talking about, still:
"hate monger" is a very strong word. It's usually used to refer to people like white supremacists, for whom spreading hate is a very part of their raison d'etre.
I would be very cautious in using that word to tar and feather a fellow Jew.
Publicly rude and insulting (allegedly- I haven't seen it) can be obnoxious, but is far from hateful. Was it entirely unprovoked?
Time to give up and move out? Beit Shemesh in 25 years will be the next Bnei Brak (which was once mainly national relgious). Look at Elad which was supposed to be half-half with the National-Religious there becoming irrelevant.
Nobody forced you to move here against your will and nobody is keeping you here either. How about focusing on the mayor's achievements these past 5 years and attempting to focus on upcoming projects? If you cannot make peace with the evolving character of the city, then maybe you should consider other options... Again *giving up* is your personal sentiment; as a resident of RBS for almost 10 years, I have seen that by and large - people operate on a live and let live type mentality.
Wow you guys are really crazy. Who cares who brought out how many voters or votes or who did or didn't vote or who came in to help. There is a bottom line - Moshe Abutbol wont the election - end of story. Now let those who want to stay and continue building an amazing city, do so. Let those who want to have a tantrum that they didn't get what they want - stay at home in their Mamad with the door closed and do just that. For the rest of us it's time to give encouragement to our Mayor. It's time to find out what his plans are and if there are things that we want, then let's communicate that to him in an intelligent and respectful way. This is not an Autocracy like Obamaville - this is a democracy. We have Councilmen who were also elected to make sure that our needs are met. Get in touch with them and let them hear your requests in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Then we can all have what we want - an amazing community filled with Torah and Chessed and all types of people living and growing together.
Mazal Tov!!
ReplyDeleteNow let's all of us work together b'ahava focusing on our common goals.
I am so happy this morning!
ReplyDeleteI think that we can all be happy that the court got a stinging defeat.
Thank God, with a even higher turnout, it just proved how many thousands more frum Jews there are in Bet Shemesh.
This a once a lifetime kiddush Hashem.
The supposed "fraud" party got nearly 1,000 now votes than last time.
*more
DeleteTime to call another election because the secular and mizrachi lost.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing you should be writing is your sincere apology to the haredi community and to Abutbol. You accused Abutbol and the whole hareidi community of systemic fraud in the last elections. These new results prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that last election there was 36 fraudulent votes done by a few individuals and not systemic fraud as you all accused us of. Its time to be a true heroe and admit you were wrong. We are waiting......
ReplyDeletea. I made no such accusation. some people did, and the courts confirmed it.
Deleteb. a win in a second election proves nothing about the first, just like a loss would not have proven that all haredim are fraudsters. it was as stupid a claim as the one you are making now. he campaigned, he rallied his troops, he got more people to come vote, it shows nothing about who did or did not vote the first time.
Have you read this articla by a journalist who actually looked through the evidence and how the judges came to their decision?
Deletehttp://www.nrg.co.il/app/index.php?do=blog&encr_id=79974780b5e0d394fddbd1a00f4f21d3&id=4899
Either you believe it or you don't. It's disingenuous to claim that you made no such accusation if you're presenting it as a fact on your blog.
I'm not telling you what to think or what's right, but you can't say that you have taken no side in that debate.
Actually, anon of 8:44, you should be sad. A large section of your community who don't believe in voting, gave up on their principles just to put Moshe in.
ReplyDeleteAnother crack in the fantasy of "Daas Torah".
Without them Eli would have won.
Most outsiders don't really understand those communities of kano'im or relate to them in general.
DeleteI recognize that it makes everyone feel better to think that Eli lost because the other side gave up on their principles, but it would be pretty silly of us to assume we know that to be the case.
(or at least we should try to understand their reasoning before assuming this to be the case)
Anon of 8:44, one could just as easily claim that because Abutbul won by 200 less votes than last time, that proves that there were 200 fraudulent votes, and not 36 as the charedim claimed!
ReplyDeleteand thats without taking into account the additional hundreds or thousands of votes from the kannoim who didnt vote last time
DeleteThere were 7% more voters in this election than in the last one.
DeleteThere were also differing circumstances because there's no way for things to be exactly the same and just the fact of the re-vote probably swung many people to the opposite side they had been the last time.
None of the claims make much sense.
Anon 8:44
ReplyDeleteYou are making a big mistake. Youre assuming that the Cohen supporters really thought there was wide spread fraud. Youre assuming he and his followers really believe the ridiculous court ruling (which our blogger seems to believe as fact). I think they just jumped on the anti-chareidi sentiment in the whole country, and did whatever it takes to become mayor. I dont think he thinks chareidim are all a bunch of crooks. He just used whatever powers are at his disposal to become mayor. And, fortunately, he lost. All the tactics legal and illegal, dirty and clean, political and inciteful, did not help him in this second chance race. BH !
Win 8:57
Youre making a mistake. Those that voted, voted WITH daas torah, and those whose daas torah said not to vote, didnt vore. Plenty of kanoim poskim said to vote in this election, as the main point here was not who is mayor, but Kiddush Hashem or c"v the opposite. This includes Rav Vosner from BB, Rav Zundel Kroiser, Rav Berland and others. Rav Tzvi Cheshin had an interesting take - he said that legally the election was won fair anda square by Abutbol last time. Legally 36 illegal votes do not overturn the election, regardless of the "math" his brother and his court buddies concocted. Therefore the position was stolen from Abutbol, and there is a mitzvah of hashavas hagzeila to do what you can to return it to him.
Charlie, very interesting. So you're saying that a lot of people who didn't vote in the last election, did vote in this election, for Abutbul. And yet he won by less votes than in the last one...
ReplyDeleteRBS resident,
DeleteAll you've proved is Cohen was able to bring out more new voters than Abutbol. Cohen still lost yet again. So what's your point??
I did not prove that Cohen was able to bring out more new voters than Abutbol. My point was to point out the fallacy and contradiction of Charlie admitting that Abutbul got many voters this time that he did not get last time, and yet simultaneously claiming to have "proven" that there were only 36 fraudulent votes.
DeleteEnough already.
ReplyDeleteLet's work on getting along. See http://www.aish.com/v/sp/Weve_Gotta_Live_Together.html
Let's all work on ..................... loving every Jew. Let's bring Ahavah back to our wonderful city. After all we're all brothers and sisters. We can and do disagree on many things like any family, but let us respect each other and bring out the deep love that we should have for each other. May Hashem bless all of us with the ultimate peace and blessings. I love you all We're all family with the same Father in heaven!!
ReplyDeleteI no longer view Aish.com as one of it's organizers is one of the hate mongers from RBS.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what makes him a hate monger exactly- could you clarify?
DeleteI've seen proof that he supported Abutbol in the election- is that what you're referring to?
Unlike his website which aims to reach every Jew (and especially their wallet) the referenced person attacks on Facebook and other media anyone who doesn't fit his "bill".
ReplyDeleteI clearly remember the last elections when he was publicly rude and insulting to Eli Cohen and supporters near the Matnas. Some of it is actually on video.
I wonder how his Aish followers would react to that display of "Ahavas Yisrael".
I have no idea to whom you are referring. at first I thought I did, but now I no longer do.
DeleteI'm also no longer sure I know who we're talking about, still:
Delete"hate monger" is a very strong word. It's usually used to refer to people like white supremacists, for whom spreading hate is a very part of their raison d'etre.
I would be very cautious in using that word to tar and feather a fellow Jew.
Publicly rude and insulting (allegedly- I haven't seen it) can be obnoxious, but is far from hateful. Was it entirely unprovoked?
Time to give up and move out? Beit Shemesh in 25 years will be the next Bnei Brak (which was once mainly national relgious). Look at Elad which was supposed to be half-half with the National-Religious there becoming irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteNobody forced you to move here against your will and nobody is keeping you here either. How about focusing on the mayor's achievements these past 5 years and attempting to focus on upcoming projects? If you cannot make peace with the evolving character of the city, then maybe you should consider other options... Again *giving up* is your personal sentiment; as a resident of RBS for almost 10 years, I have seen that by and large - people operate on a live and let live type mentality.
ReplyDeleteWow you guys are really crazy. Who cares who brought out how many voters or votes or who did or didn't vote or who came in to help. There is a bottom line - Moshe Abutbol wont the election - end of story. Now let those who want to stay and continue building an amazing city, do so. Let those who want to have a tantrum that they didn't get what they want - stay at home in their Mamad with the door closed and do just that. For the rest of us it's time to give encouragement to our Mayor. It's time to find out what his plans are and if there are things that we want, then let's communicate that to him in an intelligent and respectful way. This is not an Autocracy like Obamaville - this is a democracy. We have Councilmen who were also elected to make sure that our needs are met. Get in touch with them and let them hear your requests in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Then we can all have what we want - an amazing community filled with Torah and Chessed and all types of people living and growing together.
ReplyDelete