Mar 9, 2014
REPORT FROM THE R' AARON FELDMAN SPEECH AT BEIS TEFILA:
I was asked in the comments to post a report from the speech by Rabbi Feldman regarding the Bet Shemesh elections. I was not present, but somebody else was and he submitted the following post... as always, anybody is welcome to send me (israeli.jew @ gmail dot com) a post for consideration, no matter what side you are presenting.
A Guest Post by David Ram
A Guest Post by David Ram
REPORT FROM THE R' AARON FELDMAN SPEECH AT BEIS TEFILA:
I attended R' Aaron Feldman's speech at Beis Tefila this evening. I have tremendous respect for him and felt a quasi responsibility to welcome such a torah giant to our community, whether i agree with him or not. I also grew up in Atlanta under the leadership of his brother, so I feel a bit of a connection to him.
Because he was specifically flown in to speak tonight on the topic of the local elections, it is clear that the Abutbul campaign is nervous about the Anglo Hareidi swing vote and/or apathy. So I was expecting a powerful message about why one should vote for Abutbul. I was quite disappointed with the speech. I feel that the Anglo Hareidi community to whom he was speaking is a possible swing voting group, but I feel the key messages from the Rabbi tonight did not, or at least should not have resonated with the crowd. The 3 key takeaways were:
1. The election was stolen from us by the fry bagatz. they overturned an election based on a possible fraud of 36 votes and expanded that to 1,400 votes with minimal logic and proof; all because of the national conspiracy against torah and the hareidim.
2. R' Moshe Abutbul is a great mayor. He has done and will continue to do a good job. He will do good to transform Beit Shemesh into a flourishing torah metropolis, just like Bnei Brak. In fact, Beit Shemesh is at a similar point in its history to Bnei Brak a few decades ago. and this is why Bibi has taken an unprecedented interest in this election, and people like Yapid. to stop this process.
3. Chilul Hashem is the worst thing one can do or be a part of. and if Abutbul loses, then the bagatz and the chilonim will say - "see, you are all frauds. You cheated the first time, and this is the proof." we cannot allow abutbul to lose based on apathy or a belief that the other candidate will be better...abutbul must win to avoid a massive international chilul hashem.
The reason I feel that this did not resonate with the swing voters is because everyone knows there was real fraud. And everyone knows Abutbul is not a great mayor. he may be OK...but he is not great. And lastly, the chilul hashem already happened. I don't think if Abutbul wins it will undermine the existing chilul hashem.
Truthfully, I didn't see too many swing voters in the crowd...but I am curious to know if his message was convincing. I was expecting him to tell the Anglos that this is not the USA or the UK. Voting here is not a personal decision. It is a community decision. And if you are a part of the Hareidi community, then you need to vote with your community. and those voting decisions are driven by daas torah and not individual choice. That I believe would have resonated more...since that is the confusion often felt within the Anglo Hareidi community – "Do I do what the rabbis tell me, whether they are aware of the local issues or not, because of this odd almost mystical concept called daas torah? Or do I exercise my civic duty on my own personal views – a right that I have as an individual and one that I cherish as a member of western culture?"
That is why is was surprised by his message this evening. I thought it was weak. Politics is more similar to religion than medical questions or taxes.Questions on where to live or family planning. In general, there are personal questions and then there are community questions where we may seek advice and/or psak. We all have strong western values, which is generally good. But western culture tells us that voting is a personal decision. Strong, tight knit communities often vote together. And Hareidi leadership does not view it as a personal decision. If you are western and do not identify with the Hareidi community, than there is no reason for you to worry or listen to the Hareidi community leaders. But if you are Hareidi then by definition you need to tow the line. The phenomenon in recent years that is happening in Israel, is hareidim are voting more and more as individuals and not as a community. Last national election cycle, there was a massive Hareidi leadership campaign to get the masses to vote together. It was a big success. But specifically in RBS, there is this Anglo Hareidi community that experience the clash of cultures resulting in confusion in the voting booth. And there is a growing Israeli Hareidi group that are feeling more empowered and often neglected by the Hareidi leadership as poverty perpetuates. Big hitter gedolim provide a serious boost, by guilting the Israeli hareidim and convincing the Anglo hareidim. I expect these types of events to have a big effect, but I didn’t feel it tonight.
But as a side note, as a staunch Zionist, I love the fact that an 80 year old torah giant living in Baltimore feels a personal, national responsibility to get on a plane for a 2 day trip to deliver a 1 hour speech to swing voters in Beit Shemesh and to convince them to vote in a way that he strongly believes is best for the torah way of life. This is a Zionist dream.
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Yup, Rabbi Feldman, R"Y of Ner Israel, where they allow college and work closely with many local universities to assist the student body. Yup, Ner Israel, where Rabbi Weinberg (R"Y after Rabbi Ruderman) was not allowed on the Moetzes because of the college issue. Oh, and Rabbi Feldman is the father in law of Rabbi Kornfeld from the Gra shul where he spoke. That is really the reason he was flown in to speak. Classic.
ReplyDeleteSo Abutbul wants to turn Beit Shemesh into another Bnei Brak, the poorest city in Israel. And we're supposed to vote for that?
ReplyDeleteand since Abutbul supporters were caught red-handed cheating and caused the biggest chillul hashem in years (ok, so you cant "prove" it was 1400 and you have issues why the courts didn't just let the "little bit" of cheating slide) so now i'm supposed to vote for Abutbul to try to minimize and somehow cover up the big chillul hashem?
ReplyDeleteIf Torah is not important to you, then no, you're not supposed to vote for that. He wasn't talking to you.
ReplyDeleteYou mean the Torah that says you shouldn't cheat?
Deleteyep - same one. Are you being all Lapid and Lipman about this claiming that all Chareidim cheat? And all working Jews steal and lie and cheat on their taxes (oops - thats a stereotype that you don't like)
DeleteWhat you are saying , it's pure motzi shem ra. and i see that.for you a wprking Jew cannpt be Charedi.
DeleteI also did not attend the speech and videos. But could the writer also give a summary of the video talks given by the other 3 Gedolim?? As one who lived his first 51 years in Philadelphia, and who once having become Ba'al Teshuvah having had interactions with and having been helped by (including providing me with Chaverusas from amongst Talmidim of Philly Yeshiva) R' Shmuel Kamenetsky (although I chose not to attend this gathering), the seeking out of R' Kamenetsky -- All due respect as a Chacham, as a Godol, and hakarat hatov to R' Kamenetsky, but I doubt that he is even aware of the myriad of issues involved here in Beit Shemesh such as to speak out adding further fuel to Rabbinic edict that we "must vote for Abutbul." . It seems as if the entire program appears as another case, as with R' Shteinman, of being given a one-sided perspective which basically amounts to: 1 candidate wears a black kippah and keeps Shabbos, whereas the other seemingly does neither and therefore evil, an am ha'aretz, etc. In closing, I seek to keep living in a diverse Beit Shemesh, rather than to have to live in a drab, run-down, closed-society version of B'nei Brak.
ReplyDeleteI have a question for Abutbul supporters. Do you prefer Abutbul because you think he will be fair and equal to all populations, whereas Cohen would discriminate against charedim; or is it that you think that Cohen would be equal, but you prefer Abutbul because he will act more in the interests of charedim?
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Lapid and Co. approve of him is enough to scare the heck out of me. Remember how much Lapid states that he doesn't hate the Chareidim, yet everything he does is directed toward changing their way of life? Well, Eli Cohen also says he doesn't hate the CHareidim and he is endorsed by Lapid. Abutbol was never a bad mayor. People like to bash him because even though he was better than his predecessor he wasn't AS GOOD as they hoped. They also bash Abutobol because even though there has never been a single mayor in any municipality that has been able to tame Kitzonim when they act stupidly, Abutbol must take the blame and has thererby become unworthy. Of course, ELi Cohen has called Abutbol himself a Kitzoni, and as he has never spit on kids or thrown stones at people, the only logic behind his statement is that he feels Chareidi = extremist.
DeleteDear Curious,
DeleteHere is my list of why I'm voting for Moshe Abutbol (not in any particular order).
1. He has done a great job as mayor. Period. The city is far better off, not perfect, but far better off than it was 5 years ago. He deserves to have another 5 years. If he were the CEO of my company I would have renewed his contract without performing a search for a replacement who "might be better."
2. As Rav Feldman said last night, it will be Kiddush Hashem if he wins and chas v'shalom the opposite. People want to show that the charedim are frauds. We aren't . We might not be perfect, but we aren't frauds. Kiddush Hashem is the purpose of life and even if I had not been an Abutbol supporter before, this would have swayed me.
3. The gedolim and rabbanom whom I follow in all other aspects of life have said to vote for him and there are many reasons, as I understand it for their opinions.
4. This election is not just about beit shemesh, it is a national issue. Everybody knows that.
Thanks for listening.
All the best,
Jack
Jack, do you know which person enabled Yair Lapid to get 19 seats in the Knesset?
DeleteYup, Moshe Abutbul.
You reap what you sow.
I guess you are referring to the Orot school. First of all, Moshe Abutbol tried to resolve the situation before it started. The agreement that he made with the principal and the DL rav which would have made the whole situation a non starter were not lived up to. The "rights" of the DL world took precedence of compromise and shalom.
DeleteDov Lipman and crew then took the terrible situation that, yes was chillul Hashem and made a far worse chillul Hashem by violating the Torah and running to the secular public. In Torah the ends do not justify the means.
Moshe B. - They played 3 videos: R' Kaminetsky (from Phili), Novominsker Rebbe (head of agudath Israel of America) & R' Nevenzahl (Rav of the Old City). R' Nevenzahl was the video of his speech that he gave last week in RBS. R' Kaminetsky just said to follow daas torah and looked down to say the mayor's name which was a bit mispronounced. and Novominsker Rebbe mainly talked about the supreme court decision and the conspiracy against the hareidim.
ReplyDeleteBut frankly, there is no reason for these rabbis to meet, know or care about Eli Cohen's positions. The hareidi community votes together. they are united. issues are irrelevant. was is relevant is unity towards the hareidi goals. If Eli Cohen split the hareidi community, then perhaps it would make sense for community leaders to meet with Eli and understand the issues. But if they are all united, it is completely irrelevant.
Lets look at the past 5 years under Abubol. 2 malls built. The city won a financial award for good books. New park playground stuff put in all over aleph. Whats so bad? Yes, the Orot school thing was a problem. However, the orot school thing was 20 people doing very stupid things. The reason Bet shemesh got a bad name was because a certain resident of BS wanted to be in the knesset so he made himself a name by taking the dirty laundry of 20 nuts and showing it to the world.
ReplyDeleteIf Abutbol would have been discovered to be living in a house thta had an illegal structure, I could promise you the word scandal would be written all over the media and the min. of interior might have stepped in to disqualify him. Because its Eli Cohen, not a peep will be said. The whole E. Cohen campaign was we are glatt and Abutbol isnt. Really now.....hmmn lets check the building records. Now, what are E. Cohen supporters saying, listen, all politicians are slightly corrupt but E. Cohen is better for bet shemesh. What a 180 degree turn around.
Yes, the bagatz did disqualify a whole election because of 36 votes even though there was a spread of 1000. Did the police finish their investigation? Not yet so how can the bagatz decide on something until a full investigation is done? Because the Govt is anti hareidi. Atleast call a spade a spade. Dont lie and say I am voting for Eli Cohen because of nice parks and clean roads. Say the truth: I am voting for Eli Cohen because I want to stop the Hareidim!. If this was america, the adl would be investigating the antisemitism involved. Here its ok to hate hareidim.
boy do you have a chip on your shoulder.....
DeleteAh, the "Unknown" voice of ignorance. Stating that he ha a chip on his shoulder because Lipman stepped on the Chareidim, turned his back on all the Rabbonim and gave up Torah values just to become Lapid's puppy. This is not a chip - this is stating the obvious
DeleteI totally resent having a rabbi fly in from the States to interfere in our local elections.
ReplyDeleteThe reason its a chillul hashem is because the CHILONI papers are talking about it being our chance to finally get rid of the chareidim.its not because YOu or WE will say that, its what the world is saying about torah jews!!!!!!The only way to get the newspapers to shut up is for us to win the elections. That will stop them from saying "see I told you".If aboutbul wins they will have to shut their mouth.
ReplyDeleteJust another point .
If aboutbull gets 17000 votes (which is the same number he got last time) but eli cohen gets 18000 (he got 16000 last time)will that still prove that aboutbul cheated?????
david, i can only presume your last paragraph was satire
ReplyDeletelet me get this straight.
ReplyDelete"you" (that is the term you used-actually it was a bunch of Koah politicians-and some abutbul adviser - and at least 200 kanoyim whose TZ were found) cheated in the elections and stole from me. since all the "chiloni" papers found out about your election fraud- it is a chillul hashem - that you caused. so now i have to help you cover up your fraud and chilul hashem (by now voting for abutbul) ???
36 to be exact, and the others were never used obviously.or we would know about it, so that leaves abutboul with a win by 920 votes
Deletethey were given in to be used for fraud (and maybe many more that were not caught) but since the police caught them before they got to be used - that is considered ok? if a thief is seen before he gets a chance to steal - you consider him a tzadik? or should he be watched next time he comes into your store?
DeleteThe whole "fraud" was only voting for real people who were able to vote and were afraid to vote themselves.
DeleteBesides, that it didn't affect the results.
lets not forget that Moshe Abutbol basically admitted to the fraud - not that he was involved, but that it existed at a significant level. his defense wasnt "no fraud". his defense was that there was fraud but it was only in haredi neighborhoods so new elections should only be ordered for haredi polling stations.
Deletethe court agreed with Moshe that there was fraud but added that it was too significant to limit to just the haredi neighborhoods.
To I voted for Eli. NOBODY says it was ok. Nobody says Moshe Abutbol had anything to do with. And nobody with half a brain really believes the fraud affected the election. So Moshe Abutbol was the democratically elected mayor and he deserves to have that position. It is the will of the people.
ReplyDeleteI guess we will find out tomorrow if that is true. Won't we.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why you use the term "Torah Giant" to describe him, as if you know that to be true.
ReplyDeleteHow could you possibly know what his true Torah stature is?
Besides, it is all relative. Do you mean to put him in league with R. Elyashiv? or more like in your standard Rosh Yeshiva league? Poseik? What?
I think this is something that needs to be clarified. If people are looking for the opinion of "Torah giants" for communal issues, then they need to define what a "Torah giant" is and then have a way to determine who meets those criteria. I do not say this to be disrespectful to a Talmid Chacham, but there are different levels of Talmidei chachomim. The question is what level is needed for people to follow that person for major communal issues.
Rav Feldman inspired me.
ReplyDeleteI am switching my vote to Abutbul.
You sometimes just have to swallow daas Torah. After all, we are still Haredim.
Ha Ha. So you are the unknown chareidi that voted for Eli Cohen last time but now are switching to abutbul. Right!
DeleteOK. I'll follow the advice of the local Rabanim in the neighborhood that are supporting Eli Cohen.
Deletethe only thing I am curious about, Unknown, is why Rabbi Feldman did it for you and not any of the other rabbis? you weren't goign to listen to rabbis shteinman, kanievsky, kornfeld, malinowitz, nevetzal or any of the others who were brought in, but rabbi feldman sealed the deal? I am curious what was different about rabbi feldman.
DeleteMy RY.
Deletefair enough
DeleteThat's odd, most Ner Israel students say that they don't feel that Rav Feldman is their RY at all - he does not reflect the classic hashkafah of NI.
DeleteNot only that but the other Rabbonim on Ner Israel are not in line with the RY hashkafah. The talmidim naturally are more inclined to follow their rebbe in yeshiva (if anyone). Some of those rabbonim are considered to be greater talmidei chachomim than the RY, such as Rav Berkowitz and Rav Lansky.
Deleteחרדים לפני מי? חרדים לדבר ה' ולא לדברי בשר ודם
ReplyDelete