Oct 27, 2009

Quote of the Day (qotd)

We will continue working to enter the momentum of construction, as per the decision of the City Council that divided the area for everyone. They are suspicious we will pull a fast one and give the land only to haredim, but that is not accurate. Their goal is to disturb the development of the city, and from their point of view, the haredim are a disease....
200 protesters that tried to disturb the tour of the areaby calling out slogans, created an atmosphere that was not respectful and shamed the city. The police removed them, but the unpleasant feeling remained.. I was elected to build the city. Whoever doesn't like that, can wait until the next term and choose a mayor who will sit idle.

----- Bet Shemesh Mayor Moshe Abutbol


  1. Where is this quote from?

  2. http://www.haredim.co.il/ViewArticle.aspx?catID=2&itmID=4520

  3. A Mayor for All (of His) PeopleOctober 27, 2009 3:58 PM

    Why is Mayor Abutbol so upset about some vocal protests?

    I saw gangs of his supporters rip down signs of opponents during the elections. I attended a debate between himself and Shalom Lerner where his supporters behaved in a loud and unacceptable manner.

    No, DL/Chiloni don't consider Charedim a disease. The DL/Chiloni just want to be accepted as equal humans and Jews and allowed to live in peace.

    Would these same Charedim throw stones and protest in New York or Lakewood and expect everyone to sit back and take it?

    A little hakaras hatov to a country that allows everyone to live the way they wish, be exempt from the army (if they choose) and taxes and pursue a life of learning.

    Perhaps they are just a tad spoiled.

    A PS to Meir Baalish,Richard Peres et al. Don't complain about our current mayor and iriyah..you put them there!

  4. How do they know that Abutbol is not abiding by the 3-part agreement?

    In any case, it isn't really possible to control who buys. It is just defining what types of units are built. Some types are more attractive to charedim (e.g. smaller, less expensive). Chilonim need a spot to put their entertainment center.

    I imagine that he is right that some of the protestors consider charedim a disease, and would not like to see more of them in Bet Shemesh.

  5. there was a document with a tentative agreement between Abutbol/Montag and the Housing Ministry detailing all the units for haredim. I don't know if it is a binding document, but there is strong suspicion that there is plotting going on to circumvent the original agreement.

  6. It actually sounds a lot like the way Obama kvetched during the town hall meetings last summer.

    And like Obama, I don't trust this guy as far as I can throw him.

  7. I imagine that he is right that some of the protestors consider charedim a disease, and would not like to see more of them in Bet Shemesh."

    And who has been more tolerant of whom?
    I rarely hear of chilonim throwing stones,protesting stores,taking over mikvaos,demanding rules of dress and type of stores in malls.

    That is not to say that there aren't intolerant chilonim..of course there are.

    But what would you say if you worked hard, served in tzahal,paid your taxes and knew that a large segment of the populace didn't. And that B''H, Ka"H this segment is growing faster, taxing more of government resource and paying little or nothing toward it.

    BTW, I actually believe in Toraso Umanaso. But not for everyone.

    Certainly the tinokos senishba that populate our country don't understand.

    We could accomplish much more in educating our brethren and endearing them to Torah if we would behave less like mafia and more "darcheah darchei noam".

  8. The feeling among chareidim is that the chilonim for sure think that the chareidim are a disease.

    The chidush to me is that this is how the DL and MO BEHAVE (even if they dont think it).

    To me, it doesnt matter who buys in RBSG. I have my apt already. I happen to know that there is a chareidi housing shortage (crisis) that they are trying to fix with G.

    But what is the MO DL issue here? I dont want more chareidim to buy here. Thats looking at it as a disease. I dont care if chilonim buy in chiloni areas.

    The other issue here is that no normal secular or DL kablan is going to risk his money and buy plots of land to sell to DL. There is too much of an issue here. For the chareidim, all it takes is RAYLS and 1-2 Rebbes to say buy, and you have 1000 who want to buy chareidi projects. Seems like a much better investment. All the MO DL people can scream what they want about how thay want the city to look, but can they bring the money? Can they bring the buyers? I highly doubt it ! They werent able to even pull that off with Ramat Shilo - as there are plenty of chareidim that ended up there so far. And now you want a whole (third of a) city?

  9. Let's Be Honest HereOctober 27, 2009 8:12 PM


    Like it or not the charedim may buy up apartments but its the dl/chiloni who pay the taxes.

    And its the charedim who run to individuals and tzedaka organizations to get help to pay for those apartments and yes, like it or not, its the charedi "light",dl and chiloni who support them.

    I live in a DL community but you can be sure that my schnor bell rings with requests from charedim.

    My house isn't kosher, my wife and kids don't dress good enough for them, my flag insults them but boy oh boy my money is certainly "mehadrin" enough!

    I don't think that they are disease but they certainly treat me like one.

  10. Kupa Shel Vaad HaIr ArtziOctober 27, 2009 8:13 PM

    Why don't we all just give to Kupat HaIr and everything will work out.

  11. Like it or not the charedim may buy up apartments but its the dl/chiloni who pay the taxes

    How does kiryat sefer and beitar illit function as the cleanest cities in the country? Who pays the taxes?

    Ignorace is bliss, eh? Just blame the chareidim for all the problems, those darn parasites... you sure theyre not a disease?

  12. Don't Be So ParanoidOctober 27, 2009 10:18 PM

    How does kiryat sefer and beitar illit function as the cleanest cities in the country? Who pays the taxes?

    Ignorance is bliss! Take you own medicine. Obviously you don't how taxes work. It all goes into a big pot and is then divided (by population size).

    So yes, Beitar and KS get money according to population. Eventually, however, the tax base will shrink while those getting services grows.

    So even though some people don't pay in they get as much (or more) of the benefits.

  13. Anon,

    Have any of your female neighbors been spit upon? Have your public areas been vandalized with Graffiti? Have you or your neighbors received threatening letters because you have a TV that faces the street? Has your 14 yr old daughter been beaten up? Have Israeli flags been ripped from your car or your home? Has your city been run into the ground commercially? Has your child's school bus been stoned?

    Yes, my friend, ignorance is bliss. All this is going on right under your nose, while you blissfully ignore or romanticize it.

    I'll say it if nobody else will. A subset of the Chareidim are a disease. They've infected our city, our religion, and made life miserable for everyone else, including the rest of the Chareidim. Unfortunately, the pattern is that among those moving here are more and more of this "subset".

    This makes it imperative to maintain some sort of demographic balance.

  14. most haredim don't hate dati leumi. most haredim dont hate chilonim.

    most DL dont hate haredim. most DL dont hate chilonim.

    Most chilonim dont hate haredim. most chilonnim dont hate DL.

    some do. of each group. a small percentage.

    Bet Shemesh was not a haredi city, and until about 20 years ago there was just a smattering of haredim in BS. It started to grow when they built the kirya haredi, and then exploded with RBS. Nobody came here intending to take over the city, and nobody came here looking to push others out. But that is what happened. People bought here because it is a beautiful area and prices were reasonable.

    What would you do if a whole group of hassidim joined your shul and then voted to change all the minhagim to hassidic minhagim (assuming your shul is not a hassidic shul). What would you do if a whole group of sfardim joined your shul and then voted to change all the minhagim to sfardic minhagim (assuming your shul is not a sfardic shul). What would you do if a whole group of litvish joined your shul and then voted to change all the minhagim to litvish minhagim (assuming your shul is not a litvishe shul). would you be happy about it? It is understandable that the old timers of Bet Shemesh are distrubed that newcomers have come and changed the tone of the city. It is not hatred, but they see their lives and their lifestyles being changed against their wills. hey see that their kids are no longer interested in living near them, and prefer to move to other cities.

    And then you have the crazies who have moved here who make trouble and give the rest of the haredim a bad name undeservedly.

    Will DL people buy in RBS G? I don't see why not. You are assuming they won't and many haredim say that. Is it true or not, only time will tell. the city is not haredi. True, in elections they took about 45% of the city, but that is elections, not demographics. With haredim voting about 90-95% turnout and others with only average 65% turnout, elections results are skewed. So haredim control in city hall 45% of the city, but in demographics they are probably still less than that. And the mayor, a haredi shas man, was elected as much by the chilonim who supported him, because he ran not as a haredi candidate but as a social candidate, as by the haredim.

  15. Rafi, well said.

    I think your analogy is a tad off though. It's more like: What would you do if a group of X's built a shul next door to yours and tried imposing their minhagmim on YOUR shul.

  16. I think mine is better. the haredim have moved here and taken over control of the city (or maybe I should say "a lot of control") that was previously run by old time Bet Shemesh people.
    like the shul that was taken over.

    we are all residents of one city, like it or not. yes the problems in Sheinfeld are more specific as the neighboring area residents try to impose its ways on Sheinfeld residents, but this situation is about the city, not about a specific neighborhood or street. As a city, it is like the shul being taken over, but on a larger scale.

  17. Not really. I mean yes we're all residents of this city, but the coercion is being done mostly by those who you would call "crazies". Like any larger city, ours has distinct neighborhoods with their own sociology and character.

    So for instance, if there were no "crazies" in RBS B and just normal people then it would have been just a quaint little corner of the mosaic, like Chinatown in NY.

    The proof of this is that the Kirya peacefully coexisted alongside Sheinfeld for many years until RBS B was built and the "crazies" started moving in.

    It comes back the problem of what you call "crazies" and what I consider to be a systemic problem within Chareidism. These "crazies" are just the logical result of an ideology that more and more leaves little or no room for the "other".

    As they reach a critical mass there will be (already is) a conscious effort to push out the other. Not just from his shul, but from my shul too.

  18. These "crazies" are just the logical result of an ideology that more and more leaves little or no room for the "other".

    The Charedim (and perhaps many in the other communities too) are living very insular lives, so they don't seriously think about others' ways of living. As a result it's very easy to just call it wrong, and be quite happy if crazies do the dirty-work of clearing out the foreigners.

    I don't think it's intentional, just as someone earlier said DL don't intentionally hate charedim. But it's a very likely side effect of the priorities people are taught nowadays.

  19. by foreigners I didn't mean olim I meant those foreign to one's own ideology.

  20. I believe the term in psychology, to explain this quote, is "projection".

    It seems, like with numerous other situations that have occurred in just the last year (the latest being the Rabbi Eckstein debacle), that all the haredim want is to have their cake, and eat it too.

    We can do this, but if you do it, it's a shanda. We can do that, but if you do it, oy va voy!

    It's just plain ridiculous. And it happens only because they know they can get away with it.


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